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We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.

Catarina Barreiros: Welcome to another episode of the podcast "It is Now or Never." My name is Catarina Barreiros and, today, we will talk about access to energy. What is access to energy, how does this access manifest itself in different geographies and how is it that renewables are able to help guarantee access to energy for all. And I have two special guests with me, who are experts on this topic. We have Luís Matos Martins, who is CEO of Territórios Criativos, President of TESE, he has a degree in Finance and a master's degree in Marketing from ISCTE. He was Director General of DNA Cascais, Audax, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Tec Labs and is now a university lecturer. He is also Chairman of the General Assembly Bureau of ALER, founder of Science4You and member of the Advisory Board of several startups incubators. Thank you, Luís, for being here with us. We also have Guilherme Collares Pereira, he graduated in Management and Marketing from ISCTE. He joined EDP in 2017 after more than 30 years of experience as a business manager. He is responsible for the area of ​​Social Innovation at EDP and, since 2013, has been Director of International Relations and of the Access to Energy Fund at EDP Renováveis, a position that then led him to assume representative positions in associations such as ALER, EURELECTRIC, the Portugal-Mexico Chamber of Commerce Industry and was also recently appointed by the UN Global Compact as Ambassador of SDG number seven. And that's exactly where we're going to start. Therefore, Guilherme, the first question is for you. The SDG seven speaks precisely about access to energy. What do we talk about when we talk about access to energy? What is at stake?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: First of all, thank you very much. It is always a pleasure to talk about a subject that is very, very dear to us, that of energy for development, access to energy. When you talk about access to energy, you talk about access to electricity services. And we want electricity to have low tariffs so that it is accessible to people. And these people - I suppose we will be talking a lot about this today - are especially the populations of developing countries, who are the ones who effectively have no or very little access to electricity services. It is estimated, nowadays almost 900 million people lack that access, we will talk about energy, but they don't have access to electricity services. And it is a necessary condition to have access to energy, otherwise I will never be able to break the cycle of poverty of these people. And that is what we are talking about. The goal, the 7, is very important. It is transversal to all others. It has to do with the issues of water, agriculture, health, etc., education, all of them. We are in the middle, seven, but I would say that we are transversal with everything else. And this appointment that the UN Global Compact made when it invited me to be an Ambassador is a great honor and my job has been, above all, to talk about this theme and explain it. And to whom? Preferably, especially to the younger ones, the students. Because that is where we have to make a great effort, so that tomorrow, later on, in their professional career they understand this perfectly. Electricity, for us, is one thing, we don't think about it in everyday life, right? It's as simple as touching a button and sometimes that isn't needed anymore. We do this and the light turns on and off. It is unthinkable to live without electricity and this is the great theme of this area.

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. We spoke about developing countries which are, in fact, an essential point and I know that Luís has also been working in this area, we were also talking about that a little while ago. Because for us it's something like flipping a button. For many people it is not being able to conserve food, to produce food, to access water. Therefore, I know that Luís has this experience, what are the difficulties?

Luís Matos Martins: Exactly. First of all, thank you for the invitation. It is a privilege to be here alongside Guilherme and you. And it is true, TESE works precisely in these areas. It starts with water, sanitation, waste, energy and employment, entrepreneurship and works in Portugal, but with a focus also in Guinea-Bissau, São Tomé and Príncipe, Mozambique, Angola, Cape Verde. We are working to go to Timor, to have offices there for daily work. Indeed, I share Guilherme's view that energy is very transversal. And giving a small example of what we do specifically in Guinea-Bissau, in Bambadinca: we have more than a thousand solar panels that allow us to supply energy to a tabanca, a large tabanca. And this relates to education in the SDGs, because it allows the school to have energy, it effectively allows commerce and services. Then, if we want, we can think of other areas, namely health, so it is very transversal [00: 5:00] this issue of energy. And it is a cause, too, very, very ours. We - and returning to Bambadinca, inside Guinea-Bissau - it's interesting, because we have these thousand solar panels that supply this community. And that village, at this moment, wants to have more energy points, it wants to have more meters, but actually, the measures – and it was a discussion that we were having just now – some of the measures and policies don't allow this to happen. Why? It does not allow this because tariffs have to be increased and this depends on the regulator and the regulator does not allow these values to be increased. There is a support base for this. Because at TESE, before defining the tariff, we carry out a socio-economic study to try to understand what is the capacity that each family has to pay for this energy. This, on the one hand, has a dimension. Coming back to energy, we have the energy... we say many times in TESE that energy and water always go hand in hand, because...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: It's fundamental.

Luís Matos Martins: ... it is fundamental. We are - and now I can go to Bafatá, or I can go to Bolama - installing water pumps, but for these water pumps to be installed they need energy. Therefore, they need to have a photovoltaic panel that allows for what? The pump works to supply water, and again we simply expect to turn the tap and get water, and that it can reach a school, that it can reach a tabanca. And that allows for what? Subsistence agriculture, and that allows for trade, for production because what I do not consume at home I can then sell and this will generate employment. And there is no better social policy than employment. And hence this path we have been making in TESE which is: water, energy, sanitation, waste, employment, entrepreneurship. So all of this, which is all interconnected.

Catarina Barreiros: It's interesting, you picked up on a point that I think is very interesting, which is: they carried out a study in TESE on financial feasibility to support these costs and only based on this financial feasibility did they move forward. And it is interesting to realize that, while you are generating energy, you are also creating jobs and that one does not live without the other, is it not? Therefore, in order to achieve this access to energy and this financing of families, entrepreneurship is guaranteed. So the energy is basically, as Guilherme said earlier, in the middle. Energy, access to energy is in the middle of everything.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: And my question is: what is being done at this level – and this for both of you, because I think that the two can have inputs on this – to guarantee access to energy in the world, especially in these countries that are in need of this faster development to achieve the conditions that we have had for 50 years?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course. Fortunately, many things are being done. I would say that perhaps a decade ago, a decade and a little ago, very little or nothing was done. Maybe it would be interesting for me to tell a brief story that actually happened at the time I joined the EDP Foundation, I was responsible for the Social Innovation area. We were in 2008, around that time, Engineer António Guterres, at the time High Commissioner for Refugees, sends a delegation to Portugal to contact the 20 largest Portuguese companies and try to obtain financial support to buy medicine and food, above all. This for the refugee camps in the Horn of Africa. Basically Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, etc.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. Hum-hum. 

Guilherme Collares Pereira: And I received this delegation, they talked about their cause and the request, to which I said: “well, the support, the subsidy, we will certainly not give that to you. The money we have available for intervention actions is not from the perspective of subsidy, but for social investment. We really believe that, oftentimes, the subsidy perpetuates the problem and what we want is to bring solutions to the problems, or, failing to do that, to minimize these problems." So that's when the idea came to me to propose to that delegation: "look, no money, but we can bring renewable energy solutions, clean energy to refugee camps in the Horn of Africa, which is exactly the region where you want to act and where there is more sun." In fact, the entire African continent is the richest continent in renewable resources. It's the sun, it's the water, it's the wind, it's the biomass, it's the geothermal, it's all there in large quantities. Completely self-sufficient, they could depend only on themselves. Their reactions was a bit... they were not expecting our position, not about the money, but about the energy solutions. They said they had to think, they returned to Switzerland, Genève, and presented our reaction to Eng. António Guterres in Genève. He was delighted with the idea, with this very innovative solution – they had never thought of it [00:10:00] and he asked me to met him in a few days – I went there and we had a conversation, the result was that EDP, maybe – they would have been happy – we could have written a check for €50-100,000.00 to help with food, right? EDP, innovative as always and ahead of its time, and with vision - right? - made a social investment of €1.3 million in a refugee camp in Northern Kenya, on the border with Sudan, called Kakuma. And we made a set of interventions: Electrification of schools, electrification of hospitals, pumping of water for irrigation, nurseries, solar lanterns. 

Luís Matos Martins: Solar kiosks. The solar kiosks, too. 

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Solar kiosks. A project - if there is time during our conversation and if you have interest - a very interesting project the solar garden. A small vegetable garden for families - right? - refugee families.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: And from then on, it influenced many organizations that had not thought of this kind of solutions, which EDP really pioneered, with a large-scale intervention and, from then on, donors etc. began to make this type of demand. But like Luís... you said just now, and very well, these projects must be done with and not for, which is completely different. And in doing so, of course, we have to talk to the future beneficiaries. Listen to them, learn from them and, by doing so, there is a certainty that, in the future, our investments will run much better.

Luís Matos Martins: I want to share a bit too, there are several cases - right? - it is a theme that has been working. There is much to do, much has already been done. And to share a little bit more, I was in… TESE has a delegation in Guinea-Bissau with 20 people and, therefore, it has some dimension, and we are doing work in Bolama – I had never been to Bolama – it is an island which was once the capital and 30 years ago it had energy and piped water, but today it doesn't. Today, it doesn't have anything. 

Catarina Barreiros: It doesn't?

Luís Matos Martins: For several reasons: maintenance difficulties, lack of equipment, political issues. More than making this diagnosis – it is also important to do it to take measures for the future – it is important to understand what we are doing and what is the vision for the future. I just want to talk about Bolama, in addition to its beauty when you get to that pier, it's chilling what you see. And I have to tell you that the fire engines say Bombeiros Voluntários de Cascais. It has a street that is Cascais Street, so when we arrive and we are Portuguese, we are very well received and cherished. So what are we doing in Bolama? I will just to try, with my words, to convey to people what you can only see and research and feel when you are there. We are creating a minicentral in which we will - photovoltaic - which will allow to supply energy to the village, to the town of Bolama and to various tabancas. After that, it will allow for the installation of water pumps so that the water can reach the surface and it can be used for everything we have been talking about: for soil irrigation, it will reach schools, it will allow cleaning, even drinking. Therefore, the best quality water, we are doing water analysis and this is what we are building. At the same time, what are we doing? And we were talking about employment and entrepreneurship a while ago. We are teaching the Guineans how to assemble, repair and maintain photovoltaic pumps and panels. What is this going to create? It will create a community, a number of experts are prepared to continue the work that is being done. There is an infrastructural work, an installation work, but then it is necessary to assemble, install, repair, maintain these pumps and these panels and therefore they are having technical training. But in addition to technical training, we are giving them management and entrepreneurship skills. Why? So they can, with a friend, with a family member, set up a micro-business and then provide services to the State, to other organizations and not just focus on this project that we are doing in Bolama. But we are also doing it in the interior of Guinea. It is this combination of various themes and various SDGs that makes this project in Bolama successful. We are in an embryonic phase, but I am sure of it. And also in Bolama, we hired local people to inquire about consumption among the population so that we could define what is the appropriate tariff in relation to income. But those who know Africa, and our experience is very much in Africa, we know there is immense energy poverty. Immense! And so we have to continue our work. Much has already been done, but there is a lot to do still from the point of view of the installation, to be able to leave something that will allow people to continue.

Catarina Barreiros: Autonomously, right?

Luís Matos Martins: Autonomously. Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: I think we're always going back to the same point, which is empowerment, aren't we? [00:15: 00] Working with the population means getting, not only... it's not giving them the fish, it's teaching them to fish, like the old saying goes, it's not giving them money, but teaching how to manage it. Not give resources, but to teach them how to create them. Therefore it is about making them autonomous, so access to energy seems to me to touch on empowerment and education, which is probably the biggest paradigm shift in the world of sustainability and education - isn't it? - for these developing countries.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: And my question was - I understand that TESE works a lot with renewables - are renewables a great asset to help access to energy? What is the difference between renewable and non-renewable energy, because one of the things we know is that some developing countries still do not have the capacity to access energy through renewables. But, on the other hand, it seems to me that it is, perhaps, simpler at the micro level to implement with these conditions.

Luís Matos Martins: Yes. Yes. What we have felt is that in the communities, in the favelas, in the tabancas, what happens is that one can create a unit, we have learned a lot from photovoltaic energy, with solar energy, because it is easier to implement, isn't it? So we came from an origin, TESE, which was the Engineers Without Borders. We know about Médecins Sans Frontières, but we have a brand called Engineers Without Borders precisely because of that. We come from an engineering base, from the point of view of the creation of these communities near the tabancas, near the favelas, and that solar energy, with the technology we have today, is easier to implement. We can see where there is sun. We are usually talking about very flat areas that would hinder another type of energy. What have we been doing? It is precisely this: installing photovoltaic equipment near the community that will allow to supply these tabancas, these communities, and we create an organization of its own to manage this community, this organization, this photovoltaic energy pole. Then, this allows for management, maintenance and so on. We opted for photovoltaic energy, for solar energy, because it is the most, from a technological point of view, is what is easier to transport and place.

Catarina Barreiros: And that is great since it is also more sustainable.

Luís Matos Martins: Exactly.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: I might add, like you have already stated, Luís, solar energy is the cheapest, fastest and most efficient way to bring electricity to people. And, as I mentioned earlier, the sun is abundant throughout the African continent, so it really makes sense. Surely you will ask this question: having that in mind, why? I suppose it's easy to explain. There are several reasons. I would say that, from the outset, and this is a topic that the current Secretary-General of the United Nations, Eng. António Guterres touches on a lot: we need to end fossil fuel subsidies. 500 billion dollars are spent every year subsidizing fossil fuel. If we did a downsizing and every year we reduced, because we cannot also reduce. His intention, yes, is to reduce right this moment. But it is complicated, difficult, there are many interests behind this, if we reduced 10% a year, 10 years later we would have this solved. But those 10% are 50 billion a year. And with 50 billion, we would certainly achieve universal access to energy throughout the world. I just mentioned those 600 million in Africa that do not have access to electricity, just to give you an idea and for people to understand, to compare almost all of Africa, the so-called Sub-Saharan Africa, its annual electricity consumption corresponds to the consumption of New York State. This gives an idea - doesn't it? - of what needs to be done to make a decisive move on the African continent, which has enormous potential. And, therefore, energy is a good way to do so, with great advantages not only for CO2 reductions, but for the users themselves, right? There is also another number, also important - and that you also know - almost two billion people on this planet cook with firewood, with the use of wood, biomass, even charcoal. It is a lot of people, a lot of people who are cooking with firewood, and not just cooking. They use firewood for what? Maybe for a little bit of illumination, because it always helps, to warm up, there are cold nights even in Africa, very cold, and also for protection. The figures are glaring: almost 60% of the annual deforestation on the planet is for these... it is for this purpose.

Luís Matos Martins: And this dimension, often, people do not know, they do not know. This issue of use. Of course, they don't know.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: They don't understand it.

Catarina Barreiros: I think there is something to be said too, about the use of the word "natural" [00:20: 00]. Many people who hear of sustainability do not understand what it implies. It looks like it is better for the environment to use firewood instead of energy-based technology. When it is not, because firewood stores carbon, because we need trees to store carbon in order for it not to be emitted.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Indeed. The fourth cause of dead for people around the world are lung diseases. It is the inhalation of smoke.

Catarina Barreiros: Carbon monoxide, exactly, and carbon dioxide.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: And people don't have this notion. That's important. After that, eye diseases. Again the smoke in our eyes and then the problem of burns, especially in children who are standing near their mothers. The mother is cooking and they are playing or taking advantage of the little flame to study, to do something, and there are huge problems.

Catarina Barreiros: Cooking. Hum-hum. Yes.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Therefore, it makes sense to move to solar farms. You had asked another question, which I forgot in the midst of all this. Sorry about that, Catarina.

Catarina Barreiros: It was about why the use of fossil fuels is so wide when compared to these alternative energies, cleaner energies. But I think you have explained very well what the issue of subsidies was.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: That's it. On the one hand, subsidization, is it not?

Luís Matos Martins: Yes. We were talking about donors a while ago and TESE's activity is heavily funded by the European Union and the Camões Institute. But it is curious, I have this vision - I do not know if Guilherme shares it - that is: I create the necessary policies in a state, in each country, or from a more macro point of view, that I am sure companies would be interested in, they would...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: I have no doubts at all. Surely, surely. 

Luís Matos Martins: They would be interested in making these investments as long as the conditions were created.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course. Of course.

Luís Matos Martins: Therefore, at this moment, we end up making this mutual investment: financing for the European Union and the Camões Institute. But I am... I have this vision, I have this thesis, that private companies...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Yes. Money. Money, funds for cooperation and development abound. There are too many. Too many. Creating conditions so that the private sector can also have access to these funds, that is very important.

Catarina Barreiros: It could go faster, right?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Then with technology, which is more than proven. Technologies - whether solar, wind, or whatever, water, small hydro plants as well - are more than proven and resilient. And with the trend of reducing in costs. Right? So everything is here. And there is a need. There is a, I will call it a market in quotation marks, shouting "Please give me access to energy to break my cycle of poverty, to progress socio-economically." And everything is there. Why doesn't it happen? I sincerely, and I say this many times, think it is a lack of political will. Because everything else is there.

Catarina Barreiros: We have technology, don't we?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: And if the political will begins to intervene... and I suppose you have also talked about this, Luís. About licensing, about difficulties, bureaucracies, regulation. Solar systems of a certain dimension need to be licensed. Other smaller things, like the lantern, don't. They don't need a license, but to have an impact and for us to be able to make an intervention, with the mini-grids you mentioned - such as the one in Bambadinca - in order for them to have an impact... because it is not just about having a little bit of light, which is very, very important, it's about having energy for my computer, my phone, my fan, my flat iron, my soldering iron... in short, all these little artifacts that only work if there is energy.

Luís Matos Martins: And this leads to the issue of employment and entrepreneurship that is also a cause of ours.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course, of course.

Luís Matos Martins: In other words, if there is energy, you can effectively create commerce and the services provided with the equipments that can provide services, create products and sell, generate revenue, hire people... this generates money. And generating money allows what? Improving the standard of living of the populations in these communities. I would like to speak a little bit about São Tomé and Príncipe because today I have only spoken about Guinea and therefore I would like to speak a little bit about São Tomé and Príncipe. We, in São Tomé and Príncipe, are in a phase a little further ahead. What are we doing? In the case of the involvement of TESE. We are, at this moment, with EMAE in a project also funded by AFAP, which is a local organization that works with funds, with incentives, but to do what? To sensitize communities to reduce energy consumption. Why is this needed? On the one hand, some use cheap energy in a way...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Luís, sorry to interrupt you... people think "oh, this energy comes from the sun, the sun is here every day, it doesn't run out," right?

Luís Matos Martins: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: The same thing with water. Doesn't that happen to you? We had no water, now water flows, gushing every day, so they need to be educated for consumption.

Catarina Barreiros: We too, we too. In developed countries. 

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Ah, here too.

Luís Matos Martins: What did we do? We started with communities, effectively, to create… we created community ambassadors, women who are in the community, São Toméan women are reliable, confident, they are mothers, we also opted for the empowerment of women who continue with their professional activity. On top of their professional activity, what do they do? They talk to other women: "neighbor, have you paid EMAE?" [00:25:00] And it is like that, to raise awareness of what? "Have you paid? Are you consuming a lot? Let's try to consume less." Why? So that energy reaches more people. And if we reach more people, we are improving the standard of living of these people, of these communities, of these tabancas. What happens? We are seeing very curious results, aren't we? These people start to take responsibility for payments and better energy efficiency. What did we choose to do, which was not even foreseen in the project? It is to do this for EMAE's own technicians. For the technicians themselves of the National Water and Energy Company. Because they themselves also have to have that knowledge.

Catarina Barreiros: Okay. Okay.

Luís Matos Martins: And then we see things that shock us, we see a bank with this absolutely blinding exterior lighting 24 hours a day and then we are asking people to… reduce consumption, right? And when we talked about consumption…

Guilherme Collares Pereira: There's a lot of work to do there.

Luís Matos Martins: There's a lot of work to do. And when we talked to people "Oh it's true, you're right." Therefore, this awareness-raising work is, in fact, very important and what we are currently doing it in São Tomé and Príncipe and, therefore, it is also a project that honors us a lot.

Catarina Barreiros: Explaining the obvious, right? 

Luís Matos Martins: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: It seems... there are things that seem so obvious that even we... I was saying this in a provocative way, we also have to learn that, don't we?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: But the truth is this, we are consuming right now and the sources can be renewable. But they are not infinite. In other words, they do not reach everyone in an infinite way. Therefore, they have to be allocated with balance, so... it is a...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: No, and when the installations are made, they are sized for a certain power, right? And so, if consumption fires up... especially with air conditioning, which is something that when you have it, you put to work immediately. An air conditioner can shut down a small mini-grid, right?

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Luís Matos Martins: And in Mozambique, inside Mozambique, we are also working hard on the issue of repairing and maintaining these equipments. So, in other words, this is a little of what we have been doing around the world, a lot in Africa is towards not only creating conditions for installing photovoltaic panels, water pumps to supply communities, but also creating small repair structures, the maintenance and installation of these equipment so that work can remain in the territory…

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. 

Luís Matos Martins: ... and have a multiplier effect that can generate jobs. I still believe that there is no better social policy than employment. And this will allow, effectively... notice how we started talking about what is the ODS 7, energy is in fact transversal. It is transversal because all this relates to health, to education and even to tourism itself, doesn't it?

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. The role of local education is also curious. Education so that the minute you have access to energy and water, you learn about the efficient management of these resources. And it's interesting because one of the things that is said is: if the countries that are in the process of development at the moment all raised to the standard of living of the most developed countries in terms of consumption and carbon emissions, I mean... there would be an environmental disaster. Therefore, from an early stage, it is necessary to learn, from an early stage it is necessary to teach, to train, to educate, to undertake. And it's all connected. 

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: What I was saying a while ago, having a little more energy to turn on a computer can mean that someone can graduate, a girl who is going to university will break the cycle of poverty, will learn to manage her family planning, will… so a vicious cycle is solved with access to energy.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course. Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: This is wonderful. And there is a question here I have to ask: we know all this, why lack of political motivation? Why lack of political will?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: I think that nowadays, unfortunately, a lot of politicians - this is also for developed countries, isn't it? - they are very... they all work in the short term.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Isn't it? These are long-term problems that have to be solved with a lot of patience, with strategy, in a very professional way, are they not? Why am I making investments in small things, which need a big level of investments, especially for electricity companies, utilities, now we have a concrete case in Africa, we are talking more about Africa. EDP also makes interventions in Central America, America, South America, etc., anyway... in other geographies. But, in Africa, I would say that it is the entirety of electrical utilities, they are bankrupt. And why is it so? Because they are selling energy at a lower rate than the cost to generate it or of the price they paid to a third party.

Catarina Barreiros: To be competitive?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: No. Because it is a lower tariff, it is a social tariff, the social tariff is very important. It is meant to protect the poor. But it is a false defense. If we are thinking on a very, very, very short term it is good, isn't it? We have energy there, cheap electricity, but in the long run it will never allow them to take the leap, to have that plus that transforms their lives. Who effectively benefits from cheap energy? The ones who do not need it. The big companies. Big businesses, small businesses, medium-sized ones, it doesn't matter. [00:30: 00] No. Those in the bottom of pyramid, isn't it? At the base of the pyramid. Really the people, the poor families...

Luís Matos Martins: We in São Tomé and Príncipe have found that the biggest debtors to EMAE end up being hospitals and organizers... 

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Even worse. 

Luís Matos Martins: How will EMAE cut electricity...

Catarina Barreiros: To a hospital?

Luís Matos Martins: ... to a hospital?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Well, it doesn't. It is a false question having a low tariff. All of us. Even today, there is this effort, and EDP also accompanies it, we really like to have the tariff... a low tariff. But that is not the way. Because when we have the need and we realize that we have made a certain investment, we are spending more money, making a huge sacrifice, but that electricity will allow me that and that, we will never want to leave. In that Kakuma camp, ten years ago, yes ten years ago, there was already inside the refugee camp... if there is any place in the world with poor families, its there, but there were some families due to other factors, that had some financial availability and they paid, per month, for a 40 Watt light bulb, working four hours, four to five dollars. And this is the most expensive electricity in the world! But they saw the advantage that it offered.

Catarina Barreiros: And they wanted to invest.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: The family was together, the family talked, the family saw each other, the family studied, the family, the family, the family… they were able to extend their working hours because at night it is less hot, because in Kakuma… Kakuma means in Swahili "No Man's Land." Temperature reaches 40 to 45 degrees daily. It's brutal, isn't it?

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: And at night it goes down a little bit and then they prolong their work at night and can do other activities and produce handicrafts, etc., to get money – right? - that will make a difference and allow them little by little to straighten their life.

Catarina Barreiros: Its independence.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: So all this talk about the tariff... about the political reason to keep tariffs low. No. It's a mistake. This is already recognized. The United Nations itself and the development banks are realizing this. And what do we have to do? It is... really, we have to scale these systems to the small pocket, when they have a pocket, sometimes they don't. In other words, the initial value of the investment - CAPEX, isn't it? What we usually talk about - that has to be subsidized. But then the operational part, it can be sustainable and keep up with a tariff that is designed and calculated according to the investment that has been made and the operating costs. 

Catarina Barreiros: To be sustainable.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: This is perfectly possible. It is sustainable and it is working. And often and in all cases where this is possible, the value is always higher than the rate that governments have. 

Catarina Barreiros: That is what Luís was saying a little while ago.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: We know of a case in which the public grid is there, the national network, but it never works, which is another problem. Because then sometimes, for many reasons, grids do not work, that's it, and in the meantime people have organized their lives around that - is it not? – they have the small job that, in the meantime, they have created, the small shop, and they cannot be without electricity at night, or for two or three days, sometimes even for a week. So, beside the national grid...

Catarina Barreiros: There is another one.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: ... there is a parallel grid, a mini-grid network, as we call it, which was created for that village, for that cluster of houses, right? 

Catarina Barreiros: This is a paradigmatic example. Indeed, TESE is doing this, isn't it? They manage to make the price a bit higher because they adjusted with...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: They are doing it and surely they will be called to attention because they are doing a price that will take an argument from the politicians, right? 

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly.

Luís Matos Martins: And these energy communities can also work in this way. So then there are several models, and I don't believe there is one model that works better than the other. The management models of these organizations, in my opinion, ranges from private or non-profit and may in some circumstances have State intervention. Because this depends on each "tabanca", each community, we cannot replicate the management models, after the investment is made, the so-called CAPEX, so we cannot generalize it in the future. And say: It will be all private or it will be all by local organizations, or it can be all by the State. No.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course. Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: Local strategy suitable for each...

Luís Matos Martins: You have to look...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: The model itself is usually conceived with the population itself and with the beneficiaries.

Luís Matos Martins: With the population itself and with the beneficiaries, exactly. We must analyze with the beneficiaries what is the best process.

Catarina Barreiros: And this will certainly be the most fair and sustainable way because they will be the most interested ones. 

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: I consider that this topic of training is very important. My architecture thesis was about training, which is designing with the community. We cannot go to a place and tell the community what it needs. [00:35:00] She has to say if she wants a computer on to be able to study, if she wants... so that's an essential question: Listening to the consumer and teaching the consumer according to existing technology, because at the moment we don't have the problem of not having the technology, do we? We have the technology, we have the will, we have...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Great. Everything! Everything is there. 

Catarina Barreiros: It is becoming cheaper. So, what's left to do is to effectively change. I have a question just to close. Here, I like to try to focus on those who are listening to us, right? The three of us are here, but we are not alone. What can each of us do about this? What can each of us do to promote access to energy or what can each of us do so that the person next to them has better access to energy besides voting, because we already understand that this is a very political issue too. What can we do?

Guilherme Collares Pereira: We, and as a company, we also have this responsibility, have an obligation to work this at the highest level with international organizations, the European Union, the African Union, the United Nations, etc., and the governments themselves. And so, for a year now, EDP Renewables ​​has integrated an initiative platform that involves the main energy companies and not only the big ones, ENEL, Siemens Gamesa, our EDP. Then large suppliers, the Vestas, NORA, bank. A world! Telecommunications. A number of very large companies, and this is a... let's say it is a whole program coordinated between the African Union and the European Union, basically, to create the conditions for the private sector to feel really confident to go and do business. Without any fear, saying: this is done for companies to do business, it has to be. If not, there is no way...

Catarina Barreiros: It is not sustainable afterwards.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: They are not sustainable, of course. And then, to do so, we have been working for a year, listening, conducting surveys. What are the real barriers that may prevent this to happen? Some have already been mentioned them a while ago. First of all, the regulation, the regulatory frameworks of each country's energy policies and the part of the transparent financing that is very important. And we are starting with six countries that were selected in Africa, we are starting to intervene. But these are not big interventions... we are talking here about small projects - small scale, right? - which are equally important, because the family that lives isolated in the middle of nowhere, also has the right to have access to electricity. But we are already talking about projects above 50 Megawatts, which we can do in remote areas or we can reinforce - in collaboration with the national electric utilities - and extend the grid with them. Therefore, these are already very large projects in which the private sector is prepared to invest. So, from a business point of view, what can we do? Certainly this and there are other initiatives to be developed as well. And then, talking, talking, talking, promoting, explaining what is happening, involving younger people. And now that you've come, and you're very much into the world of startups, you know that this topic is really appealing to many young people. To think about solutions to bring to these regions, to change the lives of millions of people. This is a constant. And you see fantastic things. Innovation is really bubbling. Nowadays, in such a way and you should also see this situation, the so-called "pay as you go," don't you? Basically, it's all about telecommunications, putting the phones to work. One can make payments on one's phone, charge the system there in one's shack, which, in the end, these are often houses that are really shacks, with a certain amount of electricity - isn't it? - that one thinks that will consume in the next two days of next week.

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right, right.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Which is also very fair. I'm paying for what I actually consume, isn't it? And not aggregating and paying...

Luís Matos Martins: It was like prepaid cell phones, and there are still prepaid phones, so, in other words, it is prepaid electricity, prepaid energy.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Exactly. And water. And water. They have made projects with water. In Mozambique.

Luís Matos Martins: And with the water as well. So, there is a lot to say, but trying to make the best possible time management, I would start not by giving priority, but from going from the macro to the micro, I would go on the one hand with the issue of advocacy. The thesis is represented on the Portuguese platform of the NGDOs and, therefore… this is a platform that does, therefore, advocacy. Therefore, you can do advocacy, you can do political work, in the end, you can sensitize decision-makers to certain decisions. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, as organizations like TESE and others, Territórios Criativos, of which I'm also part, this world of startups and innovation. Therefore, I would emphasize that it is: go in search of the financing that exists and effectively carry out projects that not only make an initial CAPEX investment, but that can empower local communities. Why? So that they can set up small businesses [00:40: 00] - I repeat - of maintenance, management, stimulation of their own... energies.

Catarina Barreiros: Communities, energies, right. 

Luís Matos Martins: Photovoltaic energy or water pumps themselves, whatever. Therefore, these should not be isolated, but integrated projects. That is, projects that have multiple dimensions. This should go through the dimension of the installation, CAPEX...

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Luís, and they should be sustainable.

Luís Matos Martins: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly.

Luís Matos Martins: It was the third phase I was going to say. Generation of employment and that the associated model would effectively allow for sustainability. Whether it is private, non-profit or public, this depends on a case by case basis. Yes, in this dimension. Finally, one needs to talk, talk... Sharing. What is happening today...

Catarina Barreiros: What we are doing.

Luís Matos Martins: What we are doing. We are already contributing in some way. Sharing, speaking, doing sessions, training, literacy, this energy literacy, right? To effectively allow the younger ones, those who are studying, to be the target of permanent education so that they can effectively have more skills.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: This is already happening.

Luís Matos Martins: A lot is already happening.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Civil society in African countries is organizing and intervening. This is manifest. 

Luís Matos Martins: Regarding startups, just say two or three initiatives that are being done in the scope of startups and innovation. Because today this was more aimed for Africa as well. We have a company in Portimão that is designing a solar energy-driven catamaran. This is interesting. If this is adapted to Africa, it is very curious in the small rivers to see small boats. It may be for tourism, but I'm not even thinking about tourism. I am thinking of fishing.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, right. Right.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: Look, because of the fishing - sorry to interrupt - we are analyzing, we have an energy fund for development and then, yes, philanthropy. But the analysis is not one of subsidy, it is of social investment. We are looking at a sample...

Luís Matos Martins: It has been doing a brilliant job.

Guilherme Collares Pereira: …very interesting in Lake Malawi that has something like 70,000 fishermen who go out at night every day in barges with a lamp – with kerosene inside, right? – which often falls, breaks and sets the boat on fire. And it's been proven, because several experiments like this have already been done, with solar lanterns, even because it has a different luminosity, it attracts more fish and causes no problem. And during the day they are resting, so they don't need the flashlight, which is being charged by the sun. So it's a… these are very interesting projects. 

Catarina Barreiros: I think this is the perfect way to end, by saying that we not only have projects for access to energy that help in training, which help to improve our pockets, the fishing, our food. So the will is there, the technology is there. We need to do something. And it is now or never.

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast It's Now or Never on Spotify or edp.com.