Transcription:

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.

Catarina Barreiros: Welcome to another episode of the podcast "It's Now or Never," an EDP podcast on sustainability. Today, we will talk about biodiversity, what types of biodiversity exist, what are the main threats to biodiversity and what this theme implies for our future. As always, we have two experts with us to talk about the subject. Today, we have Pedro Beja, a biologist trained by the University of Lisbon, who has worked as a researcher in the area of ​​biodiversity for about three decades and, currently, in addition to being a principal investigator, is Director of CIBIO – Center for Research in Biodiversity and Genetic Resources and holder of the EDP ​​Chair in Biodiversity. We also have Vítor Batista, who graduated with a degree in Biology from the University of Porto, who was a Biology professor for a decade and a half and who, between 2004 and 2007, was the Director of the International Douro Natural Park. In 2009, he joined EDP, where he works as a biodiversity expert at the Sustainability Directorate. Welcome and thank you. Maybe we'll start by understanding how the very important theme of biodiversity fits into the SDGs and how it is part of a larger sustainability plan. 

Pedro Beja: Well, that's a question for...

Catarina Barreiros: For a whole episode. 

Pedro Beja: ... for the whole episode. But the question is that biodiversity is one of the components of a functioning planet, the planet works and we live on this planet because there is a biodiversity that makes it work in a certain way. We are a species like any other, we do not live isolated from everything around us. And everything that surrounds us, produces everything we use, from the oxygen we breathe to the food we consume, to the vegetable raw materials, to firewood, to the forest, to wood. So everything, in one way or another, is connected with biodiversity, with the ecosystems. Later, I can explain a little better by talking about biodiversity and how it... its various components. But here the question concerns sustainable development, for the well-being of people it is important that biodiversity is working well, that its various components are working well to produce clean water, to produce clean air, to produce cultural goods, etc. I would end here, but maybe...

Catarina Barreiros: This is interesting because it is a highly complex subject. So we are talking about synergies between the entire ecosystem that allow everything to work.

Vítor Batista: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: Perhaps I would ask what are these components you were talking about, of which biodiversity is part, what types of biodiversity we find.

Vítor Batista: Biodiversity is complex, isn't it? And we talk about biodiversity in the genetic context, in the context of species, in the richness of species, but here I think the focus may be on the richness of the diversity of ecosystems because it is in the ecosystem that Man - as an integral part of the ecosystem too - has its livelihood, its very existence, its well-being is there, and the whole economy is there. In other words, from the perspective of a company that generates well-being and generates all the amenities that we have for our well-being and that make our lifestyles today, everything is based on the ecosystem. Companies depend on the ecosystem. Therefore, for this reason, for companies, for the economy in general, it is very important to understand what the dependencies are in order to act and also know their impacts so that they can have a more sustainable posture and give continuity to this planet, which is the sustenance of humanity.

Catarina Barreiros: And if we are talking about companies and about livelihood, we also have to talk about threats - don't we? - to biodiversity, because we need biodiversity and if it is threatened, we as an individual, as a business, as a government, as the human species, also have our survival a bit in question. What are the main threats to biodiversity at the moment? Another theme [overlapping voices].

Pedro Beja: No. It is another complex. No, but it is a very interesting topic that I think would start with a number: at this time, there are about 7,600 billion people on the planet. Billions of people, I apologize.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Pedro Beja: We are getting very close to eight billion. Around 2050, we are expected to be 9.5, and perhaps in 2100, because it starts decreasing, we will be 11 billion people. All these people consume resources, some consume more, others consume less, so in western countries, [00:05: 00] the so-called rich countries, people consume many resources, in the so-called poorer countries, people consume less resources, but consumption per capita is increasing rapidly. The ultimate causes of biodiversity loss have to do with these two issues: on the one hand, the very large increase in the population and, on the other, the increase in per capita consumption. Therefore, we are not only more, but each of us consumes more resources. And therefore, since we consume more resources, we need to eat, we need to dress, we need to put on shoes, we need all the goods that we consider essential, like light, we need these spaces, right? And so there is, let's say, a competition for space between our needs and the needs of biodiversity. Agricultural areas increase more and more, and with the increase of agricultural areas, the increase of urban areas, and then, since there are many of us, we produce a lot of waste, we produce a lot of pollutants, so everything is about the human population and the way it interacts with the natural world, mainly because it is very, very large. So, since it is very large, everything we do, even if a person does just a bit, 11 billion or 8 billion people cause a big impact. Then, there are details that are related to conversion, with deforestation, pollution of rivers, pollution of the sea, desertification, climate change. So, all these are closer factors which are derived from this increasing human population and its exponential growth.

Catarina Barreiros: And would it be possible to be 11 billion and not to have a negative impact on biodiversity?

Pedro Beja: I think that being 11 billion will always have a huge impact on biodiversity. We can try... the challenge of these coming decades is to try to find creative solutions, so that even while being many we can live reasonably, because, we cannot ask the African countries to live badly, because...

Catarina Barreiros: Without energy so that we can have a private jet, isn't it?

Pedro Beja: ... Without energy so that we can have a private jet, right? There is a great asymmetry, and therefore the great difficulty and the great challenge is: how do we find solutions for people so they can, in spite of everything, live well? There is a tendency for the population growth to be slowing, growth is being a bit slower, but, for example, not in Africa, which is predicted to double in population in the next decades and therefore solutions have to be found to produce better energy, with less impact. That's it. But with such a large population, we will always have many impacts, there is no way around it, but clearly solutions have to be found and there are many solutions that are going to be found in order to reduce such impact.

Vítor Batista: Just to make this point stand and thinking of what Pedro just said. The core of the issue is overpopulation. But I… so the overpopulation is the problem, but more than that it is the lifestyle that overpopulation has and is pursuing. And the differentiated form, because there are countries that have a lot of impact and there are other countries that do not have such a big impact. And that is the great challenge of sustainability, to allow countries that are growing to have their human dignity index rise, since they need to have human dignity, but with low impact patterns. And those countries that have a very high impact pattern need to come down a bit, without losing their levels of human dignity. It is this compatibility between human dignity and impact that the planet and humanity face so we can inhabit the planet, because right now we need a planet and a half, on average, right?

Pedro Beja: Or more.

Vítor Batista: Or 1.7, at this time, but there are countries that have a big impact, while others...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Basically, we are talking about a balance between development and sustainability, isn't it?

Pedro Beja: Yes. And what is sustainability. The question is...

Catarina Barreiros: Biodiversity, sorry. I made a mistake.

Pedro Beja: In the case of biodiversity it is interesting to see that, curiously, biodiversity in Europe at the moment is not declining as much as in other countries. Indeed, in Europe there is a movement [00:10:00] called Rewilding. There are a number of areas that are re-naturalizing, great predators are moving back in, predators that had disappeared many decades ago. Of course, there are many impacts in Europe, but there is also a tendency for some re-naturalization, for a more natural world, let us say. But what happens is that this is happening, especially because we are intensifying agricultural production, is it not? So we have managed to produce more in less area and therefore there are marginal areas that can be abandoned. They are being returned to nature, in a certain sense. On the other hand, we are exporting the impacts. What happens is that a large part of the impacts that we don't have, we are diverting to Brazil or we are diverting to Southeast Asia or to Asia, to different countries in Asia. So this sustainability has to be seen on a global scale, because Europe can become sustainable, in a sense, simply by exporting the impacts to other places.

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. Externalities as they call it.

Pedro Beja: No... it is not externalities. It is a certain externality, because it is not pollution. But, let's say, it is an export of impacts because we have everything that causes real impacts - for example meat production in Brazil, etc. - being moved to other places. And, therefore, this sustainability has to be thought out on a global scale and, for example, we now have the European Green Deal - is it not? - with very ambitious goals. It is beneficial that a whole continent has a strong stance towards the environment and climate change, and that the document is also effective towards biodiversity. For example, the European biodiversity strategy for 2030 - or the To Farm to Fork strategy - the improvement of agricultural production that has to be done in a way... which is very good because it is an attempt to create agricultural products, etc. with a smaller impact, but this has to be carefully studied because oftentimes our impacts are not here, they are somewhere else. So this is what we have to balance, achieving sustainability here but...

Catarina Barreiros: Not compromising.

Pedro Beja: ... not compromising other countries, because... for example, these tropical countries, where the greatest biodiversity is, have the biggest impacts, with large areas of deforestation, etc.

Catarina Barreiros: And where there is less supervision and less political action.

Pedro Beja: Where there is less supervision and where there is, fundamentally, a giant demographic growth. In other words, countries in Africa that are, for example... we at CIBIO have a lot of work in several African countries including Angola. In Angola, the population has grown since the end of the Civil War. They were about 11 million people at that time, now they are 33 million people. Therefore, there is a pressure on natural resources that is very difficult to contain and this without technical knowledge to cope with these natural knowledge. We were talking about the question of firewood. Probably the biggest reason for the increase in forest in Europe, and in Portugal in particular, is the electrification of the economy, because people cooked with wood. And much of the planet continues to cook with wood. Part of the deforestation, particularly in areas of the Sahel, or other areas, has a lot to do with simply having people eat three times a day. They burn wood. To try to lessen those impacts, we have to give people the skills necessary so that they don't have to destroy their own natural resources.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course.

Pedro Beja: This balance has to be made, on the one hand, we try to create sustainable solutions and also achieve that in these countries where there is gigantic demographic growth, where the pressure on natural resources is gigantic, there most also be help to try to find solutions to reduce this pressure and to try to have, let's say, a more intelligent… it's not intelligence, a greater efficiency in the use of resources.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. It is interesting because, in fact, when we talk about sustainability we think global. When we speak of biodiversity we must think global too, because the impacts we make here are also the result of a number of impacts on the continents around us. We are a small continent, relatively small, compared with the rest, in terms of population...

Victor Batista: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: But we were also talking -before entering the topic of the COP15 - about the efforts that have been made at the international level and the action of countries that come together, countries with more development that commit to helping countries that are not yet at the same level of… I wouldn't say development, but human dignity, as you called it a little while ago. What is being done in this direction at the level of international action? What can we expect from international political decision?

Vítor Batista: I think that in the political decisions and in the great global political guidelines, this relationship of biodiversity with people is present, but oftentimes the decision-making is put on the side of the scale that weighs more, is that not right? The economy and the marketing of products weigh much more heavily on political decision-making. Therefore, biodiversity as an asset that is at the base of this entire economy has never been thought of as an inexhaustible asset and it has never been looked at from the point of view of the strong relationship that companies have with this resource. So it has always been a very segregated thing. But like Pedro said, I'm outsourcing, I'm exporting impacts, this has a lot to do with these policies that are made and that the economy helps to increase. At this moment, I think there is a big shift in the pressure to companies, because companies may not have this direct impact with the products and services they generate, but the resources they need to generate those products and services, looking at the supply chain, have very high impacts. And, therefore, it is this route that has to be taken to have an eco-design in the products that I generate today and in the services that I design and that I provide as well. So this passport for my product or for my service is increasingly important. I think that even in terms of the path - of the impact it has on deforestation, of the major impact on biodiversity loss and even on CO2 - that this is the path, companies have to do this tracking of their products...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. Of all their products.

Vítor Batista: ... from raw materials to the extraction source of the resources and then connect it with other things, which is the circular economy, every time I generate...

Catarina Barreiros: Less waste, right.

Vítor Batista: There are no residues.

Catarina Barreiros: There are resources.

Vítor Batista: There are always resources. So it is in this ability that I think political decisions are very important, so things can be done in the real world. But, in the end, the economy, companies are also a link and that is where great pressure is going to be made as well.

Catarina Barreiros: So companies as agents of change - isn't it? - at an early stage.

Victor Batista: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: And you think it may also have to do with the fact... companies have a product that needs raw materials, needs them... and start to realize that this raw material, these sources are not inexhaustible - isn't it? - and if they do nothing that in 20 years' time there is no production cycle because there is no raw material, isn't it? Therefore, do you believe that companies can be here the perhaps primary agent of change?

Pedro Beja: Companies have a very important role to play in solving the problem, because it's not just… because it takes political decisions, it's necessary to decide, but companies are really concerned.

Catarina Barreiros: And it is necessary to act.

Pedro Beja: We must act. But the action is very much on the side of companies, regulation will have an important role in policies, governments, and laws, but companies really are the modifying agents, but they are also the agents that can change the whole process, and large companies, often not directly impacted but important in the supply chain, influence the supply chain.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. And if we think of gestures here... we are obviously talking about the role of companies, the role of governments, if we talk about the role of individuals, citizens, what we all can do today, tomorrow, in a month's time, which could help to improve these biodiversity losses, to mitigate or help in the recovery of biodiversity?

Pedro Beja: Well, each of us has very little influence because, in fact, we are one in eight billion, but if we are the eight billion or the seven billion do anything, it makes a difference. And its action has to do not only with its own individual action but also with the companies it chooses or with the governments it chooses, [00:20: 00] because this makes a huge difference. Because, as we said, all of this is a complex problem in which things are very closely linked to each other, and therefore, before I talk about people, I would talk about what it is... it is not the solution, because this has no solution, in a certain way. This is a number of ways to improve.

Catarina Barreiros: It's ongoing.

Pedro Beja: It's ongoing. And so we have to be able to produce food for 11 billion people in sufficient quantity and quality and safely by the end of this century. And we have to do this with less impact and the least impact has, on the one hand, to do with the occupation of space. At this time, we managed to produce more food...

Catarina Barreiros: In less space. 

Pedro Beja: ... with two alternatives, either we increase space or increase efficiency in the space we have.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Pedro Beja: So, on the one hand, there is a need to stop the agricultural expansion, because it is by far the biggest problem we have, in terms of biodiversity, because we see the Amazon Forest with the production of meat, the Brazilian Serrado with soy production and other things, of sugar cane, the Southeast of Asia and not only it, with the issue with palm oil, so we have to have a commitment to stop deforestation and the loss of natural habitats because there are already few of them and there should have something to stop it on a short-term basis. And, therefore, from that point of view, the commitment of both governments, businesses, and people should be in order to force...

Catarina Barreiros: The stop.

Pedro Beja: ... that this point stops because, in fact, it is already very few of these areas more or fewer virgins that need to be preserved. And then we have to achieve that, in the space, we have, increase production with fewer impacts and increase production can be done as it has been doing so far, at the expense of pesticides, insecticides, fertilizers, etc., and we have to move to less production …

Catarina Barreiros: Aggressive in the long run.

Pedro Beja: ... aggressive, but not less productive, because, in fact, if we can't produce the same thing, of course, there is also waste, we have to reduce waste, etc., but if we can't produce the same thing, we will need more space. And so the truth is that we don't know how well to do that yet. So, from the point of view of companies, on the one hand, there are people choosing things that have less impact, and that is important because it creates incentives for businesses and for governments to do so, and then we also need innovation, it is necessary to think about the way it is done, it is crucial to think about the way one can use the most natural mechanisms to our advantage, the pollinators, the natural pest controls, the most natural soil fertility, with regenerative agriculture, etc., which is an attempt to obtain the same levels of production, eventually with improved levels and with less impact involved. Therefore, from this point of view, the consumer, the person has a lot of impact on what they choose and what they use and, therefore, they want to put pressure on companies to provide them with goods that have less impact, and not only local impact, but the impact on the entire value chain, ranging from what they do where they are located, but also where they get their products and how they are made, to governments, in the sense of creating incentives and creating ways to make things better. And then there is another absolutely fundamental question, is: One of the main problems is the consumption of meat, that is... I eat meat, so I am perfectly at ease to talk about it. But, let us say, there is a very great inefficiency in animal production, in relation to plant production and therefore, in general, there should be an attempt at consumption...

Catarina Barreiros: Diminished.

Pedro Beja: Decrease in meat consumption, because this also allows, in the same area, to be able to feed more people with quality, beyond health issues, beyond welfare issues, etc. Therefore, it allows increasing the way people have access to good food, quality food, decreasing it. And therefore, from this point of view, it is also an individual decision, but it creates markets, creates efficiency in new products, etc. So, let's say, there are a number of decisions that people can have, from recycling, reducing waste, using products [00:25:00] with less impact, in addition to their involvement eventually in organizations, etc., but let's say, that's not the most interested ones. But each of us has this great power as a consumer, mainly. Because as a consumer you choose and as a voter, now.

Catarina Barreiros: Vote commercially and politically.

Pedro Beja: As a voting party and as a commercial, why does that cause things to change, isn't it? We see what happens in Brazil with various governments and how they then manage natural issues. And keep yourself informed, say. Sometimes it is not easy to keep ourselves informed.

Catarina Barreiros: That's what I wanted to ask because I think we are at... the central battle must always be that of information, isn't it? Because the informed consumer chooses better and votes better, it is there, with its decisions, but we often see, there is misinformation. What I was saying about eating meat and being at ease, what is being asked is not to stop eating, is to reduce consumption, is it not? That is what science tells us, it is reducing to sustainable levels of consumption, we don't suddenly have to stop all meat consumption in the world, don't we?

Pedro Beja: Yes, because what happens... there are a lot of cute charts where we see that there is an increase in animal protein consumption per capita, with the increase in GDP per capita. That is, people...
Catarina Barreiros: Right. There is more purchasing power.

Pedro Beja: There is more purchasing power and, therefore, people, even a certain status, because… and therefore, at this moment, what happens is, let's say, the consumption of meat in richer countries, let's say, is more or less stabilized or maybe it's decreasing a little bit in certain sectors, but it's increasing a lot in other countries, in China and Africa, etc. Here it is very difficult to say: “no, they cannot do what we did”.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Pedro Beja: So, on one hand, you have to try to connect this to a health issue, and it is also a matter of health, you cannot tell them not to eat, because otherwise there will be a catastrophe, because we are doing the same thing, once again, to find solutions where there are nutritional alternatives...

Catarina Barreiros: Interesting, isn't it?

Pedro Beja: interesting and that allows... because in the case of biodiversity, the quest for space, the competition for the use of space, is huge because either I have a forest or I have an agricultural field. I cannot have both things.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. There is agroforestry, right? There are now agroforestry techniques.

Pedro Beja: There is agroforestry. Exact. There are many, but this sometimes... 

Catarina Barreiros: The income is that...

Pedro Beja: It is a difficult subject, but the things that are produced, there are many productions with very few impacts, but they are very inefficient.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. That's it. Profitability is small.

Pedro Beja: If we all ate... so the productions that are more sustainable, in the sense of local impacts, of being productive with less local impact, would be totally unsustainable on a global scale because no one...

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Pedro Beja: Because it would take many planets to produce something so sustainable, let's say.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Pedro Beja: And, sometimes, misinformation goes around there too, because there are things that seem easy, why don't we do as the lady's windrow used to do it as she did 50 years ago? And I would say: It is not possible, because if we had all of the agriculture as the lady's windrow who was doing it 50 years ago, half of the population died from hunger, wouldn't it?

Catherine Barreiros: They died from hunger. Right?

Pedro Beja: And so let's say this... that we are at a time when there are these challenges, where people have to realize that, on the one hand, highly intensive agricultural crops are also highly unsustainable and have very big impacts, but very extensive things, with very small impacts can also be highly unsustainable due to scale issues. And so what is needed for governments, businesses, people to try to find solutions that go through greater efficiency. And this is happening in food consumption, but also in energy, isn't it? How do I produce energy more sustainable with fewer carbon emissions? We were also talking...

Catarina Barreiros: To be able to give energy to everyone.

Pedro Beja: To be able to give energy to everyone. We were talking a little bit ago about the question - before we got in - of solar panels. And the issue of solar panels is very interesting because we have had several... in several forums, I have had several conversations with companies on the issue of reducing the carbon footprint because it is another thing that we have not talked about much, but in fact, climate change it is something that will also greatly affect biodiversity and for which biodiversity can also help to help resolve. But when we consume less, when we burn fewer fossil fuels, we are reducing our carbon footprint, but we are producing… [00:30:00] and with the problem solved and that's it, we have to say, no, we are changing to increase the territorial footprint, because we are increasing the area either for dams or for wind farms or for solar farms, etc. Therefore, we cannot say that we are reducing the carbon footprint, we get another problem that is eventually better...

Catarina Barreiros: We will be able to have more time to solve or...

Pedro Beja: Eventually it is better, but I cannot ignore it, which also has its impacts and therefore has to be managed in the same way. But curiously in these conversations, in the last year, perhaps, most companies think "that's it, I stop having carbon footprint, I have the problem solved." 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. There is only carbon.

Pedro Beja: No, it's not just carbon. In fact, it is the problem, it is what comes in the newspapers, it is the pressure they have to solve and have not yet thought about the rest. So it's a movement that is only just starting and we know, there are large areas that are being planned for wind farms… wind farms already exist, but photovoltaic plants, which have to be well installed because there is no planning, there are no rules, there's nothing, right now it's a…

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. This is the role of companies, isn't it?

Pedro Beja: Here is the role of companies.

Vítor Batista: It is a great challenge for companies, especially in the energy sector, where EDP is also embracing the challenge of this change, of this energy transition, isn't it? And what Peter is saying is precisely that, that is, this energy transition has not resolved.

Pedro Beja: It doesn't solve everything.

Vítor Batista: It doesn't solve everything. It solves a problem, but it is very much based on the resolution of a problem that is carbon, the carbon rate that we have in the atmosphere.

Catarina Barreiros: And that is very important and we have to act on it.

Vítor Batista: And that is very important and we have to make it this way. We have to do that.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Vítor Batista: But as we move in another direction we have to think that it is such a competition for space. Why? A Kilowatt in a conventional plant represented a minimal area that now compared to a kilowatt will need much more area...

Catarina Barreiros: It's more extensive, isn't it?

Pedro Beja: Exactly.

Vítor Batista: Therefore, due to the expansion in wind, solar and offshore. So offshore is also a big challenge, because - and then I think we have little knowledge, in my opinion, it is a big challenge for science too, for knowledge - climate change, I think that the movements of species, I don't know if I'm wrong, are much more momentary, because they happen a lot more easily and any information we... for example, even the delimitation of the protected area will cease to be updated on a short span of time because the species will already be on another site. This is a great challenge that we will encounter offshore, for example, in which science and itself... which is also a very important role that companies can be data contributors to...

Catarina Barreiros: Of course.

Vítor Batista: ... of information, around his studies, because they generate a lot of information that can be used also in a more efficient, more timely readiness...

Catarina Barreiros: Almost in real time, isn't it? 

Vítor Batista: ... in real-time, we can have planning options, management options in the way we allocate our investments, in order to minimize this impact. But they are great challenges that I think come there, so the sea and the land occupation, the competition for soil, whether for agriculture, for the production of sustainable energy, clean, therefore, but that does not cease to have its impacts.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. We talk clean about carbon, it has other impacts.

Pedro Beja: Occupies territory.

Catarina Barreiros: Exact.

Vítor Batista: Occupies territory. And there are many solutions. In fact, four days ago, a joint report came out of the technical and scientific team that monitors the panels on climate change and ecosystem and biodiversity services, and together they reached conclusions that this issue must be worked on together. The fight for climate change and the conservation of biodiversity and protecting biodiversity must be worked out because of the solutions of one impact on the other.

Catarina Barreiros: Negatively the other, therefore.

Vítor Batista: They are enhanced. The big conclusions are that it is inevitable to solve the problem if it is not jointly. This is what I think is the big message that we can take away and I think it is the paths of the future, to bring together, then the science at the base of all of this, solutions based on science and solutions based on nature, which are at the base of this as a part substantial part of the problem.

Catarina Barreiros: In other words, we are solving the problem of carbon and the control of carbon emissions without generating negative externalities, let's call it that, for biodiversity, without generating a loss of biodiversity. Talking like this. 

Victor Batista: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: And maybe this question has no answer. I am completely novice in this matter. But if we had to think of an energy production method [00:35: 00] that has less... that affects biodiversity less, is there any that is already known to be better, within renewable energy? Everyone has their...

Pedro Beja: Everyone has their own quês and then depends on where it is placed, so it has to do a lot with the site, with the type of habitat. So this is not an equation. I think the mix will always be a solution.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Diversify.

Pedro Beja: Biodiversity has a word at the root that is diversity.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Pedro Beja: And I think that diversity when we do risk management, the business itself when managing risk, diversifies its assets, wealth is in diversity.

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly. A structured portfolio.

Pedro Beja: I think the solution is even in diversity. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

Pedro Beja: I think… I have no scientific basis to say this, but I think that in my view of things, in risk management and in managing the problems we have, it is precisely to invest in diversity, in the diversity of solutions in an approach to knowledge at the base of the options we make.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. A little while ago, Pedro, was talking about the part of the oceans and how carbon affects biodiversity. You did not talk about the oceans, but you talked about how climate change and carbon affect biodiversity. It is a subject that is still heard much less than the topic of plastic for example in the oceans, which is how the global temperature rise puts our oceans at risk - isn't it? - which are a source of incredible biodiversity and without which we do not live. This seems to me to be a topic that is not yet much explored, but how essential they are...

Pedro Beja: It is already. I don't know if for the general public it is.

Catarina Barreiros: In the media.

Pedro Beja: What happens is that there are many issues and that are often related to each other. The first is the very temperature of the ocean that is rising - isn't it? - and that causes it to widen. Then what happens to… the ocean, let's say, is one of the main carbon sinks, because carbon dissolves in water, but when carbon dissolves in water it acidifies the ocean, the ocean becomes more acidic. And then this causes a number of chain impacts, on the one hand, the species say they are changing places - right? – as Vítor was saying, so we have a movement of species that were further south that comes further north, there is a series of circulation phenomena – well, I must say that my specialty in the ocean and sea is nil that these are general issues that I know – current…

Vítor Batista: Nutrients.

Pedro Beja: ... of upwelling zones, there are a number of zones that for various reasons are richer in nutrients, which change places. Then, say, perhaps the most visible, most media, and most spectacularly terrible phenomenon is the death of corals, isn't it? So coral reefs are the equivalent of rain forests inside water, they are more beautiful than tropical forests, they are, in fact, spectacular. The rain forests... a person inside the rain forest does not...

Vítor Batista: You don't see the beauty.

Catarina Barreiros: You don't have the notion of grandeur, do you? See a tree or a leaf, yes.

Pedro Beja: It has no grace, you see nothing. A person in the Amazon or in a forest – which I was lucky to be – from Southeast Asia, a person… a biologist then thinks it's fantastic to be there in the middle, but that's not really funny, because they're trees behind of others.

Catarina Barreiros: From above you see yourself better.

Peter Beja: From above, one sees much better. The coral reefs are not, the coral reefs are beautiful. And what happens is that, as the temperature increases, something happens which is: they turn white, they turn completely white because in periods of stress... so corals have a symbiotic association between the coral itself, which is an animal, and an algae, it's not really an algae, but for simplicity's sake let's call it algae, and in times of stress it expels the algae, and times of stress can have to do with issues of temperature increase or acidification, and then they end up to die. So let us say that this is perhaps the most visible and catastrophic aspect, in a certain sense, of climate change in the ocean. Good and then on earth there is everything. There is everything else since... so, the ecosystems are heading north, those on the top of the mountains have nowhere to go, just disappear by the mountain above, don't they? Because normally with climate change, species and ecosystems either move north or move upwards, when they are already up there no longer have a place to go.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. There is nothing else to do.

Pedro Beja: So let's say there are very big changes, there are also changes in terms of water management, [00:40: 00] which is another very important topic. I do not know if people are aware, but the most threatened ecosystems and where there is more loss of biodiversity is in freshwater ecosystems. They are the rivers, they are the lakes. This is where, by far, at this moment there is the greatest loss of biodiversity for many reasons, which are also extremely affected by the decrease in rain, for drying, etc. So let us say that this is an effect that, along with land occupation, will have the greatest impact in the coming years.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Before us... I always leave here from the episodes, or when I'm listening, I always think: "I love, how did we get to this point, isn't it?"

Pedro Beja: We got to this point... I would go back a little bit because we reproduced ourselves like rabbits. In a sense, because it's true… and in a sense we were… with human creativity and innovation we, despite everything, managed to achieve gigantic population growth and for people to live better and better. In other words, in spite of what we see on television every day, on average there is an increase in the monumental quality of life.

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right.

Pedro Beja: Is there a very interesting book that was published in the late 1970s, maybe you know, what was called The Population Bomb, Paul Ehrlich, and Anne Ehrlich, and what were we all saying? Basically.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes. This is where we started talking about overpopulation and the phenomenon.

Pedro Beja: There was a talk about overpopulation, and with a good reason, thankfully, because in fact, that was a problem, but it was also said that there was a need for aggressive birth control, that people should almost be sterilized and that, even if they did, there would be horrible food wars. And then we were three billion and anything, or 3.5 billion and a half and anything. In fact, we have managed, through innovation, the intensification of agriculture, to move to almost 8 billion, to feed everyone, and, despite the immense problems that exist, people live better. Only that was done to the account of giant externalities, right? We pollute the oceans, take up space, etc., and so we have somehow gained time, because we have managed to make the population grow and that there was no catastrophic scenario...

Catarina Barreiros: Apocalyptic almost.

Pedro Beja: ... apocalyptic of The Population Bomb but, that is, we have gained time to solve the problem and now... because we cannot continue to increase indefinitely, fortunately, there is a certain tendency here to stabilize.

Catarina Barreiros: Stabilization in 2100, yes.

Pedro Beja: And now we have to go the other way around, which is how we manage to create conditions for these people to live, with innovation, with quality, and with less impact on resources, trying to get things done differently And there's a little bit, because of the history of what people can do, sometimes the solutions are simple. Once again, I do not think this has solutions, so this is a complex problem and therefore has no solution. 

Catarina Barreiros: The short-term answers...

Pedro Beja: There are answers in the short, medium term. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Pedro Beja: And for example, there is a problem that is the decline of pollinators, so there is a general problem that is, bees, butterflies, insects, in general, are in decline, which may have to do with several reasons, from changes climate, pesticides, habitat destruction, etc. So this is a problem, let us say it is one of the things on the European Union's agenda, etc., and cities are great places to be able to conserve pollinators because unlike agricultural areas they do not have much application of pesticides. Therefore, if we manage the gardens, if we manage the flowerbeds in a certain way, we can maintain natural spaces in urban areas, where people live with nature, climatically alleviate cities and a large part of the human population already lives in cities, but it will still live more in cities and therefore the management of our cities and the way the flowerbeds next to us are managed…

Vítor Batista: Be refuges of pollinators, isn't it?

Pedro Beja: ... be refuges of biodiversity and climate mitigation, that this passes, for example, for people to think that it is not only the grass that is beautiful.

Catarina Barreiros: The flowers that attract, the sunflowers.
[00:45:00]

Pedro Beja: The flowers that attract you, let you manage differently the flower beds, which can be very beautiful too, that are full of flowers much more than the... 

Catarina Barreiros: Even the flowering meadows. That growth of soil.

Pedro Beja: Even the flowering meadows. There are several ways to do this, which maintain biodiversity and so that passes what? It involves people having perception, having let's say mental images of what is beautiful and what is not beautiful, what is good and what is not good. And then when they vote in their mayors, or when they have their associations, they promote this. So, let's say, this is a global problem that works from the level of people, the level of companies, the level of governments and then large organizations, which have to try to manage this complex problem, rather than solve it because it will probably solve it.

Vítor Batista: I think so, it's a matter of management. It is a matter of trying to reconcile. Sustainability is not a natural thing. Sustainability is a survival strategy for the human population, isn't it? Man needed to create these concepts of sustainability because it is not a thing of nature.

Catarina Barreiros: Why did you see that there was an imbalance, isn't it?

Victor Batista: Exactly. Because the man in terms of human species is very recent, man is very recent, he has never gone through any mass extinction and runs the risk, say the latest studies...

Pedro Beja: To make his own extinction.

Vítor Batista: …that we are in an anthropocene, which had to create this specific era here, due to the great impact of changing the planet caused by human activity, which is a kind of an ecosystem. Therefore, he emancipated himself from nature, he never strayed from nature for the solutions he found to increase his life expectancy because life expectancy was also a problem of increasing overpopulation, it's not just breeding like rabbits...

Pedro Beja: [Overlay of voices].

Vítor Batista: Catching up on that problem, but it was also the fact that life expectancy has doubled. 

Catarina Barreiros: We live longer, we are more, we occupy more space, we live better.

Victor Batista: Exactly. Why? But if we are to think, the solutions are always in nature. In other words, that is why nature, biodiversity is humanity's own life insurance and humanity's continuity. So, going back, man has never gone through any mass extinction, he is already entering a sixth mass extinction and this is serious because it is the species that, perhaps, is further away, but with the solutions in nature and with less probability, perhaps, to survive. So this is a question... one thing we can have certain is that life on the planet will not end.

Pedro Beja: Exact. That is not.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Vítor Batista: We are...

Catarina Barreiros: We may not be here.

Vítor Batista: We can't be part of this continuity of life, because our luck was that dinosaurs disappeared 65 million years ago, because if they hadn't disappeared, another dominant species wouldn't have emerged and, maybe, we'll be able to run the risk of giving way to another species that might become dominant.

Catarina Barreiros: I think I said a sentence there and if I allow myself I will close with this phrase that is: "Nature is the life insurance of humanity." And this is what we have to remember every day and think it's Now or Never.

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast "It's Now or Never" on Spotify or edp.com