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We are all agents of change, and together we can change the world. "It is Now or Never", an EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.

Catarina Barreiros: Welcome to another episode of "It is Now or Never", an EDP podcast on sustainability. Today we will talk about sustainable finance. We will discuss concepts such as ESG factors, investment and impact, and we will see how sustainable investment helps us drive sustainable development and mitigate climate change.

As always, we have two experts with us. We have Gilda Caetano, an economist who specialized in Environmental Studies at ISEG. She started her professional career at the Ministry of Territorial Administration and Planning. Right after that, in 1988, she joined EDP, where she worked as an economist for three decades. She has been working on sustainable finance at EDP's Sustainability Management Department since 2005. We also have Nuno Brito Jorge with us. He has a degree in Engineering from Universidade Católica. Sustainability has always been a part of his career. He worked in the European Parliament and at EDP. In 2013 he created Coopérnico, a renewable energy cooperative of which he is still the president. In 2017 he also created GoParity, a crowdfunding platform for sustainable energy projects. And he is a member of REScoop, the European Federation of Renewable Energy Cooperatives. Thank you both for being here. Perhaps we could start with a general question we always ask in our podcast: How does sustainable finance align with sustainable development goals? Maybe I will start with Nuno.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Hello Catarina, hello Gilda, and thank you. I think that question has a very straightforward answer, which is: the way we see sustainable finance... In fact, it's a way of investing your money in which you know that it's being applied or contributing to at least one UN sustainable development goal. So the goal is to provide tangibility or traceability to what is being done with your money when you invest it, or even when it's just sitting idle in an account.

Catarina Barreiros: OK. So, if we think of one or two sustainable development goals that are, you know, directly impacted by this... Someone like me, who's not an expert, would say all of them, right? Because when you start investing money or moving money around in the economy, it affects everything. But which SDGs are more neatly aligned with sustainable finance?

Gilda Caetano: Hello. I would say it's Sustainable Development Goal 7, which has to do with promoting renewable energies and clean energies, and perhaps Sustainable Development Goals 13, which aims to tackle climate change. I think these are the most impactful goals in terms of making funding sustainable - not the least because goals such as SDG 1, which consists of eradicating poverty, will be mostly achieved through public funding. And right now, to fully implement this set of sustainable goals, we need to combine public and private funding, and this is how sustainable finance is born - by trying to bridge this gap, a gap that cannot be bridged solely through public funding.

Catarina Barreiros: You have raised a... Maybe we should have started with the question "What is sustainable finance?", right? And Gilda was just beginning to provide an answer. Very pragmatically, for those who have never heard about this concept, what is sustainable finance? How can finance be sustainable or unsustainable?

Nuno Brito Jorge: So, basically, sustainable finance is... Maybe we should start with the concept of sustainability and discuss how it applies to finance, considering that sustainability means using available resources without jeopardizing future generations, right? The needs of future generations. Sustainable finance must ensure that the economic and financial system and our own money are used in a way that meets this sustainability requirement. In other words, sustainable finance ensures that the economic activities revolving around economic development - which is necessary, as you rightly pointed out - are carried out in a way that will allow us to continue living on this planet for many years to come.

Catarina Barreiros: So, basically, there should be no unsustainable finance, right?

Nuno Brito Jorge: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Yes, and I think that originally there was no such thing.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: I think there was no such thing when it all began. Then [00:05:00] we, as complex human beings, started changing everything. And it became such a mess at some point that now we have are more impacts than those we are measuring.

Catarina Barreiros: The concept of mess... I think that's one of the things ESG factors are trying to eradicate, right? The increasingly evident signs... They explain how a given company works, in order to assess the impact of that particular company. Maybe I would ask you to tell us more about ESG factors. How do these factors or assessments, which affect the ability of companies to attract investment, can help us understand what is actually going on with those companies? 

Gilda Caetano: Well, the acronym that you mentioned - ESG, which means Environmental, Social and Governance - corresponds to a suite of qualitative and quantitative indicators that are used by ESG information providers, which can be sustainability raters, and they make it possible to assess the sustainability performance of any given company. Although this acronym has gained purchase only recently, it was already used many years ago, back in the 20th century. Now, going back to the first fund, the first ESG fund, or at least one of the first ESG funds, started back in the 70s, in 1970. The Dow Jones Sustainability Index was created in 1999. But the big boom, widespread awareness of this topic, began only 5 or 6 years ago - perhaps due to the 2008 crisis, the financial crisis, which had to do with climate change, with the fact that the balance sheets of companies and banks did not really reflect these kinds of externalities, which are caused by climate change. And this is due to the fact that some companies do not adopt the best governance practices. Some companies do not feel that they have to prove that they can conduct their business without damaging the environment or disrespecting their workers' rights and human rights. So this is what is measured by the acronym ESG. It's this suite of qualitative and quantitative indicators that make it possible to assess a company according to a score, a rating, or according to the risk level of a particular company, because the market will then make a distinction... The sustainability index market will make a distinction between top-scored companies and high-risk companies. Sustainalytics, for example, is a sustainability rater that ranks companies according to their risk levels. Vigeo and Standard & Poor's SAM rank companies according to their score. In the case of EDP... EDP had a long history of engaging with sustainability indexes. For instance, it started answering the Standard & Poor's SAM indexes as early as 2003, but it was only listed in 2008. We have been a top-ranking company since then, either number one or number two, and in terms of risk... For instance, according to Sustainalytics we are an average-risk company; we are still at a level that...

Catarina Barreiros: There's room for improvement, but there has been significant progress.

Gilda Caetano: Yes, because on a scale from 0 to 100, the average level is 22, so we're doing very well. 

Catarina Barreiros: Well, I thought it would be 50, but 22 is much better. Right.

Gilda Caetano: No, we're at level 22 on a risk scale from 0 to 100, and our scores - say, our Standard & Poor's SAM scores - are top-level scores, so we have an average score of 87 on a scale from 0 to 100, which means that we are considered a good investment asset in terms of sustainability.

Catarina Barreiros: It's interesting that you mentioned risk and the idea of a company being attractive or not, because it seems to me - from the point of view of someone who is not a specialist - that the more companies are responsible, the more attractive they are to investors [00:10:00]. So this is good for everyone, it's good that we are measuring impacts and externalities which were not taken into account a few years ago, and that we acknowledge that they exist. There has to be some accountability, right? Regarding these.

Gilda Caetano: Yes, and this is the need that the ESG market creates, the need for transparency - companies have to be transparent. Transparent in the way they conduct their business, showing that they can do it without any controversy, that they have good corporate governance practices, because more and more investors are looking for companies to invest in, and they prefer those with the best indicators. And this requires an apparatus. What for? In terms of systems, to quickly provide information and human resources with the necessary skills to meet this huge ESG demand, which EDP feels more and more. Through investors, through ESG rating sciences, and now through conventional financial agencies as well, which are being pressured by regulators to integrate ESG factors into...

Catarina Barreiros: Into decision-making processes, right? Of...

Gilda Caetano: Into the assessment of companies' credit ratings.

Catarina Barreiros: I see. And it's interesting to see that Bloomberg itself says that the most resilient companies are those with the highest ESG factors. The companies that performed best during the pandemic were those with the highest scores, which is a good sign. For companies this is a huge market, on a very large scale, but what about individuals? If... What does it mean to me, as an individual, to invest my money instead of letting it sit idle in a bank, where I don't know its whereabouts? What does it mean to invest in a sustainable business? What impact can it have? It's a difficult question.

Nuno Brito Jorge: If you ask me, there's only one possible application.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Of course, as individuals, we have many options, don't we? It's all about what you can do with your money, and you have to make a clear choice: do you care only about profit, or is there something beyond profit? For those who only want profit, there's a huge range of things they can invest in, from cryptoassets to more conventional applications. But if you think, “No, I'm a citizen who wants to contribute to a more sustainable and responsible development model, and I want to know how my money is being used,” then you have layers of investment possibilities, ranging from investment funds - for those who have the ability to invest - to shares, ETFs... And then you have more alternative possibilities, such as GoParity, in our case, which I think is… I guess that's what I'm supposed to explain now.

Catarina Barreiros: Sure, sure. I asked the question because of that.

Nuno Brito Jorge: In our case, what we offer is the possibility of lending money directly to a business, which can be the business itself, a sustainable business, or a sustainability project that needs funding. It could be, say, a shoe factory that wants to buy solar panels, or it could be an investment for setting up a vegan shoe factory.

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

Nuno Brito Jorge: In fact, we have these two possibilities on our platform.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: So, the impact your money will have once you invest it is the proportional impact it has in the business itself. Suppose you lend €1,000 as part of a €100,000 investment. In that case you'll be responsible for one-tenth of the CO2 emissions which that company will avoid. You will create one-tenth - sorry, one-hundredth...

Catarina Barreiros: One-hundredth, yes, no problem.

Nuno Brito Jorge: ... of the jobs and all that. We measure six key indicators - energy saved, CO2 emissions, empowered communities, jobs created, women in leadership positions - and then we provide investors with tangible metrics that allow them to know what their money is doing.

Catarina Barreiros: How it's being applied.

Nuno Brito Jorge: And there's a financial return, of course. There's always an interest rate for all the loans made on our platform.

Catarina Barreiros: So when we're talking about sustainable investment, we're not talking about losing money, right? I think that some people have that sort of misgiving, like "Sustainability projects are riskier." But usually they're not, right? Or "What is going to happen with my money?" In fact, you simply have more control in the case of platforms such as GoParity. I'm a customer, so I think I can say that.

Nuno Brito Jorge: [00:15:00] I'm happy to know that.

Catarina Barreiros: It's explaining where the money is being allocated, but we can also ask our banks these questions, right? A little while ago, we were talking about the regulations that already exist, so that banks can also say "OK, now we can only lend to this type of businesses." We can ask where our money is being allocated and we can invest in funds, if we have a lot of money to invest. But there are things we can do as citizens, and as companies too. As companies, we can choose where we are going to invest, and this is something that EDP has also been doing, right? The choice of where to allocate funds is a decision that affects the company's well-being. Risk is mitigated by increasingly solid investments based on sustainability. Companies feel this as a positive impact also on their relationship with the public. Do people realize that you are making this investment? And do you realize that by having EDP energy they are choosing the planet? Or do you think we are still a long way from "I choose where to invest my money” to “where is the company I'm choosing investing its money”? 

Gilda Caetano: This question...

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Gilda Caetano: In the case of EDP, the strategy started to be directed towards renewable energies long before there was pressure from regulatory frameworks. Therefore, the guideline in 2006 was to invest in renewable energies and to implement…

Catarina Barreiros: 2006, therefore, long before... OK.

Gilda Caetano: Yes, in 2006.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Gilda Caetano: And that has been the path that EDP has taken so far. We have just announced the new strategic plan and the goal to be completely renewable in terms of installed capacity in 2030. We also announced that we will no longer produce electricity from fossil fuels, starting in 2025.

Catarina Barreiros: We are almost there.

Gilda Caetano: Yes.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes.

Gilda Caetano: And we announced the closing of the Sines power plant and also some plants in Spain. And what does this mean? That when EDP decides in October 2018, due to pressure from peers and investors, to issue green bonds for the first time, it was not to show that we are green, because our path was already green since the 2006 strategy announcement. It was to reaffirm our commitment...

Catarina Barreiros: To the consumer, isn't it?

Gilda Caetano: A signal to the financial market that we are on this path, on the path of sustainability, and that the impacts that the investment are environmental impacts that are measured by a set of indicators and that there is progress regarding these environmental impacts.

Catarina Barreiros: So is it demonstrable?

Gilda Caetano: It's demonstrable, that's the big advantage when the issue is made according to a set of procedures, and these procedures follow certain rules, that's the advantage of having the green seal.

Catarina Barreiros: It means traceability and trust.

Gilda Caetano: Trust.

Catarina Barreiros: Does the consumer realize this? Maybe you work directly with people. Because they notice what companies are doing. Do you notice that consumers are more interested in making this type of investment and want to understand how this is done at the individual level and the business level, or do you think that there is still a long way to go in Portugal to get there?

Gilda Caetano: I think we are getting closer.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

Nuno Brito Jorge: I was used to always being the only one of my friends who talked about sustainability. Even when I was already working at EDP, I was the boring one, who worked among the engineers and I don't know what. By the way, when you mentioned 2006, by then I was still in Brussels and I think that EDP still gains a lot from the vision of being one of the first great players in renewable energy, with the purchase of Horizon Energy in the United States, which suddenly became one of the biggest players in the world, and I think that even today, EDP was one of the first to trace this path.

Catarina Barreiros: It is proof that it is possible.

Nuno Brito Jorge: It is possible, and it is possible for a Portuguese company, on top of that. But I was saying that in recent years this thing of being the sustainability freaks is slowly disappearing, and I think it's becoming more and more mainstream. One of the things I've learned was “don't judge the world by the people around you,” because we deal with sustainability, we only talk to sustainability people, at a certain point, we think “everyone is much more aware,” but they are not. If we go for a walk in Colombo in the afternoon, maybe 70% of the people there are wondering if there's climate change or not.
Catarina Barreiros: Or they don't even know what climate change is.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Climate change or sustainable finance, for example. But I think that at least the concept is already familiar, for sure. And, perhaps, they are also already sensitive to the brand that gave them the right stimulus to…

Catarina Barreiros: To start thinking about it.

Nuno Brito Jorge: to make the purchase. In other words, I think that it is not the citizen who is leading this transition yet, it is consumers who are demanding, but I have no doubt that the last 2 years, since plastics, Greta Thunberg and then the pandemic, they are making people more aware. And in our case, we have a huge level of demand from our users, that is, if we open a photovoltaic panel project in a shopping center, we will receive emails from people saying "attention, this is solar energy, but there is a promotion of consumption there." 

Catarina Barreiros: Not sustainable. OK.

Nuno Brito Jorge: So people are aware of this.

Catarina Barreiros: The advantage is that we can choose not to allocate the money there. We can allocate it elsewhere.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Exactly, you can choose where to invest it.

Catarina Barreiros: Exact. This is very interesting, because I was talking about the consumer promoting change, what remains to be done in that regard? What remains to be done is to show that this change is possible, desired, and we have the example of EDP, a giant company that works in one of the most important segments for climate change, which is energy, that managed to take this giant step. What do we need to do to make this the mainstream? Just before this conversation, we were talking about how two decades ago, people who wanted renewable energy were seen as hippies, weren't they? What is missing for us now to reach a point where it is no longer even an issue, and that there will only be sustainable investment?

Gilda Caetano: I think there is no going back.

Catarina Barreiros: We are already on that path.

Gilda Caetano: Yes, there is no turning back and we are at a turning point in which the financing paradigm is becoming sustainable financing. And what does this mean? It means that there has to be absorption by the various players in the financial market, in this case companies, banks, investors, regulators, governments, citizens. Of course citizens are…

Catarina Barreiros: At the end of the food chain.

Gilda Caetano: They are at the end of the chain. The starting point is regulation... I always focus on 2015, because it is a milestone, the Paris Agreement marks the emergence of the task force's recommendations for reporting financial information on climate, and also 2017, when the European Investment Bank issues its first green bonds. The signs of change began there, regulation started to be developed, in the European case, with the creation of a specific working group mandated by the European Commission to prepare a book of recommendations on sustainable finance, and a plan with 10 action points, which is materialized through legislative packages. These legislative packages will bring the big change because they will force agents to take the path of sustainable investment and the consumer, who is at the end of the chain, will know that the fund they are investing on is sustainable.

Catarina Barreiros: The consumer who contributed with their vote for the Government to legislate, right? So we have this positive part as well.

Gilda Caetano: This will be the way, a common language, a global understanding about sustainable investment. This implies a great articulation between those in Europe who are at the forefront of this sustainable financing, with other bodies at an international level. One of the main priorities will be the transparency that they are always talking about, the ESG transparency, and an example of this is one of the bodies responsible for reporting financial information, which are the foundation of the FRS's, is working at this moment to establish a governance for the reporting of sustainability information and this is the beginning of such a big change.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

Gilda Caetano: Yes, right now, it's all voluntary, there are several methodologies, but there will come a time when they will be at the same level...

Catarina Barreiros: A common language.

Gilda Caetano: Several States adhered to this reporting mandated by the FRS's.

Catarina Barreiros: That has been happening in the market for many years, right?

Gilda Caetano: For many years. Yes.

Catarina Barreiros: Sustainable language, isn't it?

Gilda Caetano: Sustainable language.

Catarina Barreiros: I was saying that we're ahead in Europe, the rest of the world is also watching and maybe with these good examples showing that it is profitable, it's possible, it's desirable, it's good for all of us, we have managed to get large international funds to start paying attention to what is happening here too, that we have funds with immense success managing to lead sustainable development. From the perspective of those who deal with small companies every day, or who have small projects, what is needed to help companies to be more transparent and sustainable? How can we help them?

Nuno Brito Jorge: I was listening to what Gilda was saying and of course I agree with everything she said, but I think that none of this will happen soon enough. I think there's an urgency deficit. Even if it is implemented in time, there is such a huge margin to do things in ways that do not actually contribute to what is needed, that I think what we need is things ti be mandatory. Jeff Bezos and Richard Branson can't take a rocket to go into space now, they can't, they have to be fined or punished, or banned, it doesn't matter, you can't do it.

Catarina Barreiros: In order to have fun, right?

Nuno Brito Jorge: It can't be, "I will take my friends there to space and I'll be right back," but then... because now it is climate change, but it could be hunger in Africa, it doesn't matter. While we are in a society that is in fact evolving, we are still in a society that continues to reward a lot of wrong things, from the point of view of values, futility, selfishness, there is a...

Catarina Barreiros: But who regulates that?

Nuno Brito Jorge: I don't know who regulates it, I don't know. I don't know, because at the end of the day, we buy on Amazon, don't we? That is the most serious of all. So I don't know. I do not know how can this be solved, honestly. I think it's about everyone being conscientious, but I suspect that we won't get there in time that way. Just today there was another warning from the UN Committee on climate change about whether we are at the tipping point, at the point of no return.

Catarina Barreiros: I think the news from early summer has helped us understand, all the floods, I think that nowadays, in Europe, we are very alert to these issues. I understand the demotivation.

Nuno Brito Jorge: It's not demotivation, I'm motivated all the same, but it's almost like a lottery.

Catarina Barreiros: We are taking steps. But we may not arrive on time. So let's assume the consumer's point of view. On the one hand, the regulatory entities are more and more alert, on the other hand, companies are also taking steps, but the citizen is still shopping at Amazon. OK. Perhaps what is needed is this communication for the citizen, is to increase the awareness of the citizen to the impact that all their investments have. Whether it's a real investment in a financial asset, whether it's a purchase at the supermarket, a banana from Madeira or a banana from Costa Rica, or a purchase from Amazon vs. the store on the corner. How can we explain sustainable finance, which is such a complex topic, so that people realize that all their purchases are a vote, everything they spend money on is probably a daily vote they make. How can we explain it to people? How can we help speed up the process?

Nuno Brito Jorge: That's a good question. The best benchmark that I can think about is that of nutrition. In the UK they realized it is impossible to teach people what carbohydrates are, what lipids are, and which are saturated and which are not saturated, and whatsoever.

Catarina Barreiros: From the table, yes.

Nuno Brito Jorge: There is a traffic light.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: And if I eat this, this is a red sign, "don't eat too much or it will go wrong," isn't it?

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Yellow, "eat, but not too much." And green "you can eat as much as you like, it's more or less healthy."

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Maybe we have to find something like that for financial products and for… and, on the other hand, for consumer products to also have an impact traffic light, the sustainability traffic light, right? Because, otherwise, we are always forcing the consumer to search for information and research...

Catarina Barreiros: And no one has time to do that.

Nuno Brito Jorge: No one has time... of course.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Nobody has time, that is, I can't know how many liters of water it took to make the cotton for the t-shirt I'm going to buy at the I don't-know-what brand. I can't.

Catarina Barreiros: Nor how much is paid to the first-line worker, and the second-line worker.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: And then, even if I am told, X tons of CO2, people don't know if a ton or 10 tons are that different.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: You know that one is 10 times more than the other, but what is it in the global context? I think that, in fact, maybe the key is simplifying to the fullest, but also, I think there has to be a regulatory hand here.

Catarina Barreiros: I agree, then.

Nuno Brito Jorge: It is very important, I think.

Gilda Caetano: Yes, of course, because the regulation that is in progress, and I speak more of this because it is the one that I know best.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Are you talking about taxonomy?

Gilda Caetano: From the European Commission, therefore, the regulation of the European Commission, through the plan I mentioned a while ago of the 10 sustainable finance actions, it has that very purpose, the purpose of what? Through a common language, being able to assign labels to financial products so that whoever is acquiring them knows that it is contributing to a sustainability goal, that he is causing a set of impacts, and that these impacts are being monitored. On the other hand, the consumer will also know that the product he is buying has a red, green and intermediate traffic light. Therefore, this architecture, some of which has already come into force in countries, particularly in the financial market, which is the regulation on sustainable financial disclosure reporting, which has been in force since March 2021. For companies, and also with impacts for financial market agents, the taxonomy since May 202,1 in which, in the case of companies that are required to report a set of information that allows them to say and inform what part of their revenues is aligned with the taxonomy, or what part of their investment is aligned with the taxonomy. Therefore, we are witnessing a set of impositions that are being placed on companies, which will allow us to distinguish in the medium term whether companies are or aren't, or whether financial market agents are or are not placing products that are aligned with this language that is sustainable investment.

Catarina Barreiros: So, something is being done?

Gilda Caetano: It's being done. 

Catarina Barreiros: It may be too late, but is something being done? Wait. I feel a disagreement here.

Nuno Brito Jorge: It's no disagreement, I was just thinking.

Catarina Barreiros: We can disagree, it's all right.

Nuno Brito Jorge: No, no, I agree. I was thinking: how, [00:35:00] how much do we believe that all of this can be narrowed down to the project that is on the ground.

Catarina Barreiros: To the red, green and yellow.

Nuno Brito Jorge: No, no, in that I believe. But then, if we go the other way around, will we actually manage to make the traceability that it is: this product is green and has come this far, and these are the projects it is financing, because in the end what I'm going to buy is green because it finances this kind of projects, right? But it's like when we buy carbon credits, nowadays, it's also regulated, it's the United Nations that manages it, but in the end, it's like there's a hydroelectric plant in Myanmar, I don't know.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes.

Gilda Caetano: I think a good example might be, I'll go back to numbers, I like the numbers.

Catarina Barreiros: We like numbers.

Nuno Brito Jorge: An economist.

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly.

Gilda Caetano: A document was recently published that monitors sustainable investment approaches, and if in the past report - this always has a lag of years - so this is 2020, the previous one was 2018, because it's made each 2 years, in 2018, the investment approach that had the greatest weight was the exclusion investment approach, that is, sustainable investments were distinguished on the basis of either investing in nuclear, or investing in tobacco, therefore, these were considered unsustainable investments, from then on the analysis of such ESG factors could be done. What did we see happen in 2020? This approach has lost its first place in addressing ESG factors. Therefore, banks, financial market agents, are beginning to feel regulatory pressure, because they depend on them, to integrate the ESG factors. What does this mean? It means that you have to start showing on your websites, for example, what is your policy, what is your strategy, and additionally you also have to demonstrate that the products you are placing under the regulation that I mentioned earlier -which is sustainable finance disclosure regulation - it has to demonstrate whether these products are serving environmental objective A, or environmental objective B, or what kind of environmental and social characteristics they are serving, therefore, there is this regulatory pressure that…

Catarina Barreiros: That we can demonstrate...

Gilda Caetano: That we can demonstrate. It is clear that all of this has deadlines, because the organic doesn't change all at once. In the last century, companies did not adapt to the FRS's standards immediately, therefore, everything has its time to mature and for learning. Because this of the ESG world is not in an hour, or in two hours that we capture the meaning and understanding and can present it. But of course the regulation will help us with timings, with phasing, to allow everyone... so that no one is left behind. 

Catarina Barreiros: So, if we had to choose an individual action that whoever is watching us, once they turn off this episode, can put into practice in terms of sustainable finance and improve that part of their life, what would that be?

Nuno Brito Jorge: This question to me is easy, isn't it?

Catarina Barreiros: All right, the answer.

Nuno Brito Jorge: Go to the GoParity website, open an account and make your first sustainable investment to become an impact investor. 

Catarina Barreiros: For those who do not have this bias of... I'm joking. An action that an individual can do today that can help improve his contribution to sustainability with regard to sustainable finances. 

Gilda Caetano: It occurred to me to visit EDP's website, in the area of sustainability, and visit our page of sustainable finance, and...

Catarina Barreiros: To, in essence, learn more about the topic, right?

Gilda Caetano: And contact us to talk a little more about the topic.

Catarina Barreiros: Good, perfect. Perhaps we should summarize everything with a mix of both your input, which is: effectively, there is something to be done in relation to sustainable finance, it seems that we are on the right path, but it may not come in time, right? And this is proof that it is now or never.

We are all agents of change, and together [00:40:00] we can transform the world. It is Now or Never, an EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast It is Now or Never on Spotify or edp.com.