Transcription:

We are all agents of change. And together we can change the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.
Catarina Barreiros: Welcome to another episode of the "It's Now or Never" podcast, an EDP podcast on sustainability. Today, we'll talk about sustainable cities. Let's understand what this is, a city being sustainable, some good sustainability practices in cities and whether they are similar or not to smart cities. We have with us two experts on this subject. We have, on the one hand, José Manuel Viegas, graduated in civil engineering from Instituto Superior Técnico, where he has been a teacher for more than 20 years. He was the national director of the transport systems sector of the MIT Portugal program, general-secretary of the "International Transport Forum", of the OECD and founder and CEO of TIS. Since 2018, he has also been President of the Environment and sustainability Council of EDP. Welcome. We also have with us Paulo Líbano Monteiro, graduated in electromechanics, also by Instituto Superior Técnico. He was a researcher at INESC for almost a decade. He was the director of CASE and Portabil, and joined EDP, where, among other projects, he was connected to InovGrid. In 2015, he also assumed the position of director of innovation and technology, of the now titled E-REDES. Welcome to this podcast, on a theme of... 

José Manuel Viegas: Thank you.

Catarina Barreiros: ... about a theme which is so...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Thank you. 

Catarina Barreiros: ... important to everyone who lives in a city, not exclusively. And I wanted, perhaps, to start with the question that is the most exciting for those who are listening to us. What is the difference between a sustainable city and a smart city? 

José Manuel Viegas: Well, the sustainable city, to be sustainable presupposes some level of intelligence on the part of those who lead it, and of those who live there. But not necessarily in the sense that is currently associated to the smart city, which is full of high techs and things like that. Alright. A sustainable city has to be a city that cares about the well-being of its current and future inhabitants. And so, it has to be organized around balance or small imbalances, sometimes in a number of areas. A smart city has to take advantage of information technologies to carry out a number of processes, in a very efficient way...

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... the two things are not... they can be aligned, but they can also be misaligned. I can be very efficient at organizing things and be very unsustainable. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. Right. Efficiency is on everyone's radar, but... 

José Manuel Viegas: Intelligence... what is said about intelligence... this is a designation that has a lot of promotion on the part of the information technology industry. And that, therefore, means that the city has much to gain from our participation, and it is true. But if it is done with this so-called intelligence, with this technological sophistication, without the concern of sustainability, the result will certainly leave much to be desired. 

Catarina Barreiros: But is it possible to win with that...?

José Manuel Viegas: It is. Surely it is, let's see here. If it is used with that concern of balance, in a number of domains...

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

José Manuel Viegas: ... it helps, because efficiency... we manage to do things better with fewer resources. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

José Manuel Viegas: Alright. Now, there needs to be a sense of purpose. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: The intelligent city by itself presupposes instruments, but it does not presuppose objectives.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Or rather, it has a narrow objective of efficiency, but not a collective goal as a society.

Catarina Barreiros: OK. So, perhaps, picking up on this question, what then does it take for a city to be sustainable? Taking on these goals and in this necessary intelligence.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Maybe Catarina, before going there, just adding the following in relation to what the professor said. And, perhaps, give an example also to understand a little bit of this...

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... which differs from the sustainable city, from the smart city. A city... from the point of view of energy, electricity, a city will be sustainable if it uses renewable energy sources, renewable electricity and therefore guarantees a resource that is not exhausted, which is always now available for future generations And, therefore, to be sustainable I would say that it is enough to use renewable energy... 

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... now the touch of the smart city adds efficiency to this energy consumption. And therefore, if I can consume less energy, if I can consume in a different way, that saves investment... 

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... then, the touch of intelligence that I give, apart from energy, energy consumption and energy production, brings this increase in efficiency in the...

Catarina Barreiros: In management, right?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... in the management of resources, which is very relevant in energy and in all the resources that the city consumes. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Now, what is needed… the question: “What does it take to be sustainable?”, I would say that, in these various areas that were mentioned, and when we talk about a city, we talk about many areas: in the mobility area, housing, water, energy, waste and so on. I would say that it is necessary, in each of these areas, to manage with balance and manage with this concern for the future, is it not? The question of sustainability is a question that brings much [00:05:00] within us the question of responsibility, is it not? 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Responsibility for future generations. And perhaps it brings an interesting question, which is as follows: Perhaps it will bring to the citizen this extra responsibility and proximity to his neighbor, something which has been lost a little bit in the urban environment, has it not? That there is a lot of in the countryside, but that in the urban environment is very... it is more impersonal, it is more anonymous. I live in a building, but maybe I don't know my neighbor from below or above. And this need to better manage resources and manage, perhaps, in a more communitarian manner, I admit that it will motivate this need for closeness between people. In the area of energy, this is very obvious. But I admit that this is where we can gain something additional, when it comes to the relationship between people. 

Catarina Barreiros: Therefore, adding here emotional intelligence to the equation as well. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: The human closeness. It's a good point, I also think that. And I think that, perhaps, it is a good moment for us to mention the subject of responsibility here, as you said, which is: we all have a role in this issue of sustainable cities. And there is the mobility sector, the energy sector, within a city. But there are also several actors: The government, businesses, citizens. What is the role of each of us in this... meaning that, maybe we start with one. What is the role of the government in the management of a sustainable city?

José Manuel Viegas: The government has, in essence, three roles: The first is to be the interpreter of what is the desire of society that it represents, right now, and how it projects itself into the future. Many people, in their day-to-day decisions, may not have this immediate concern, but we all have concerns about what the city of our children is going to be.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: Therefore, the government has, from the outset, this function of translating the wishes of the population that it represents, in the construction of what should be that future city. Then, as an agent with economic power, it has a real capacity for investment and participation, that carries out… putting in place a set of infrastructures and services that are directly dependent on the government, and that must be aligned with this vision. And then it has, perhaps, the most difficult role, which is to create the legislative framework and economic incentives, if you like, the signals for navigation, so that both companies and citizens, in the pursuit of their own interest, have behaviors that, as a whole, will converge towards that future that, at the end, we all think would be better.

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

José Manuel Viegas: Therefore, it has these three important components. Companies play a very important role in translating their goals of achievement in the area in which they chose to be active, making their profits and satisfying their customers, but adapting themselves to this framework, which is defined by the government. Therefore, we cannot ask companies to be interpreters of collective desires, beyond what is the service or the product they provide.

Catarina Barreiros: To the consumer, right. Hum-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: But they have to be aware of what are the signals that the government is giving, on how I can do this, making my business objectives compatible with what are, in short, the guiding principles that define this framework. And then citizens have to be attentive: On the one hand, as agents, in the realization of what they do as producers, as consumers and as voters. So we have...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... all these representations... So if you'd prefer, it is like this: The roles that end up being richer in functions are that of the government and that of the citizens. Companies play a key role, because ultimately they are the driving force behind the economy.

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: But from a conceptual point of view, it is less multidimensional than either the government or the people. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes. But we... but it is true that we see more and more companies with this concern for sustainability, isn't it? We see this, we see that... 

José Manuel Viegas: Yes... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... environmental, social...

José Manuel Viegas: Yes.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... economic. 

José Manuel Viegas: No doubt. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: It is a theme that is very...

José Manuel Viegas: No doubt that today is playing a big role, but I would say it corresponds to a recent evolution in business behavior, and a welcomed one, of course...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course.

José Manuel Viegas: …which many times too, I dare say, corresponds to mechanisms of pressure on governments, indirect, because they realize that, if this is not the case, their own future as a company could be compromised. And when they see that governments are not sufficiently proactive in defining the framework that they understand would be good in preserving...

Catarina Barreiros: That the consumer demands, right? 

José Manuel Viegas: But besides the consumer, it is also to preserve their business.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course.
[00:10:00]

José Manuel Viegas: It's because there are things where, if we see that the world goes in the wrong direction, my business is over. Therefore, it also has its own self-interest aspect and thankfully, companies have to be seen as entities that have, above all, to defend their self-interest. If you'd prefer, it is like this: All living beings, from the cell to an entity, a country, a company, have as their primary goal their survival in quality conditions. And companies are the same. Therefore, for any company, the first goal it has is to survive in conditions where tomorrow they are in a position at least as solid as they are today. Alright. And, sometimes, what happens is that the company ends up having to play a stronger role in environmental policy, in social policy, in the way it is governed, precisely to facilitate the evolution of society in the direction that also allows itself to..

Catarina Barreiros: Survive. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... survive. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

José Manuel Viegas: Do you follow?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Therefore, it is not only altruism. Although it is very welcomed on behalf of all... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course. 

José Manuel Viegas: Look, it has a very important component in the social domain, but I would say that it also has a strong pedagogical component to show the government that… sometimes, it's just that you can go this way, because it's supported by companies, other times you should go this other way, because companies are showing you the way.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, yes. No, and I think there is increasing awareness, that no one is alone in this, isn't there? I think the companies themselves, the people... 

José Manuel Viegas: Of course. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... companies, nobody is alone, right? And so there is an ecosystem that has to work in its entirety. And I think this awareness that in order to work for the common good, we need to work together, I think it is something that has been prevailing more and more...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Exactly. 

José Manuel Viegas: …and that is very significant. Therefore, and the movements that you feel, that you see, in which we also participate in this sustainability theme, are a very reflection of this collective awareness, but which implies a common work, which is: nobody is going to do anything by themselves today. And I think this raising of awareness is very relevant and very real. It is not only relevant, as it is real and it is fundamental for survival or good living...

José Manuel Viegas: Of course. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... for the future, right? For the future of people, for the future of companies, for the future...

Catarina Barreiros: Correct. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... of the cities... 

Catarina Barreiros: And of the world.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... and the world, of course...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: It makes sense. All in all, deep down, we are always... this is a dominant topic that has always appeared in all episodes, which is: it's the collective, the collective thinking and the community thinking. That, basically, is something we realized that we were losing a little bit and that we are betting on again. And these synergies that are created, when companies, government and consumers, citizens work... work together. And, maybe, I have a question a little more practical now, which is: considering this common good, of which we are talking about, this sustainability in cities, considering the role of each one - government, companies and citizens – in practice, where is it urgent to act, within cities, to make them more sustainable? What are one, two, three actions that are absolutely essential and transforming of a city and that help improving the well-being of all?

José Manuel Viegas: Let me try to structure the answer. 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes.

José Manuel Viegas: There are a number of interventions that are very necessary in the field of urbanism… 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: Urbanism ends up conditioning everything else…

Catarina Barreiros: Agreed. 

José Manuel Viegas: ...land uses, where we need to have a healthy alternation in cities, are part of those balances, between the areas closest to nature - if you wish, simplifying, green areas - and the areas with buildings. And then, in buildings' areas, we need to have density, to allow for most of the mobility to be done smoothly. But density with functional variety. Because if we have density, where this area is only of housing, and that area is only offices, people do not walk from one to the other.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

José Manuel Viegas: There must be a mix of functions within each zone. And that, for example, in Lisbon, there are neighborhoods that have this functional density, there are others that don't. Lisbon and its surroundings.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: Across the country, we have many relatively recent buildings' areas that are almost mono-functional. And that is a serious mistake. And that then causes major impacts, both on mobility, first of all, but also on some issues of infrastructure supply, etc. So it starts there.

Catarina Barreiros: OK.

José Manuel Viegas: Next, we have very important interventions on the buildings' side. Which are major consumers of energy and generators of impact, and where we urgently need, for example, to improve the level of energy insulation of our buildings...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: Portugal is one of the countries with the best climate in Europe, and it is one of the countries where people feel the coldest inside their homes...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, it is true. 

José Manuel Viegas: There. 

Catarina Barreiros: We talked about this on the energy efficiency episode.

José Manuel Viegas: There then. And this results from the poor quality of insulation, which, in the end, it's not only about how much it costs, it is also about having companies able to do this well...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: …because we haven't had this practice. And, therefore, it is not a very widespread know-how.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: And we need to have these aspects, so that the houses are... at maximum, we should evolve so that the houses... maybe, not this generation of houses, but the next ones, we start to have as paradigm...

Catarina Barreiros: The passive component? 

José Manuel Viegas: ... the zero emission [00:15:00] house. 

Catarina Barreiros: The passive house, right?

José Manuel Viegas: Yes, exactly. The house... but, at the least, reduce what we have here a bit.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: In third and fourth place, then, in the order we desire, we have the utilities, so, the flows. Both water, energy and gas flows, and information flows, and flows of people and goods, of mobility.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: But if the first two are not right, the equation is already very unbalanced. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

José Manuel Viegas: Do you follow?

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: I am not able to tell you which of them is more urgent to act on, because I think there are urgent things in each of them. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: We, for example, in mobility, which is an area from where I come from, I have been working hard in recent years to promote what is called shared mobility.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

José Manuel Viegas: That, in simple terms, what we could call collective taxis and carpooling. Why? Because experience shows that when we are in the presence of an urbanism with a great dispersion of land occupations, as is the case here in the Metropolitan Area of Lisbon, and of Porto as well, it is not possible to serve well a large part of the people in public transport, for which the flows, from point to point or from small area to small area, are too thin to be well served by public transport with few transfers. 

Catarina Barreiros: OK. 

José Manuel Viegas: The consequence of this is that in the Metropolitan Area of Lisbon and Porto, 70% of journeys are made in individual cars, which is an absurdly high value compared to that of other European cities. But if we look at the urbanism of ones and of the others, we can see why it's there.

Catarina Barreiros: Why it is like this, right? 

José Manuel Viegas: The solution of giving people solutions… the way to give people mobility solutions that are very similar in terms of the time they consume, and the uncertainties of reliability, etc., in relation to their individual car, is terms sharing the use of small-scale vehicles, if you wish, to simplify, taxis, taxis which can even be a little larger vehicles, with eight or sixteen seats, but small vehicles shared with few people, but which, in essence, travel from a pre-defined neighborhood to another pre-defined neighborhood, and come back. Or carpooling, which is to do that very same... the first would be with professionals, and the second would be people, who organize themselves in ride clubs, the so-called carpooling, where the results that I have been very recently investigating show that there is an enormous potential in the Lisbon Metropolitan Area to reduce it a lot, without losing the quality of peoples' travel... 

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: …but for all these people to continue having journeys without transfers, with one or two stops on the way at most, to give rides to others, who are colleagues, but these are stops which are already close to the origin or destination, it is possible to do this with large emission reductions and virtually the disappearance of congestion. It depends, once again, on working as a collective, on being able to organize small groups. There is, often, no need for groups of 200 or 300, we're talking about groups of 2 or 3 here. 

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: But if we have a 2.5 average occupancy of cars, instead of 1.2, the number of cars is half. 

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course. 

José Manuel Viegas: Ready. And, therefore, and it is quickly realized that it is possible to have that. We could also give examples of what can be done on the side of urbanism, what can be done on the side of networks, but here Paul can certainly do better than me. But, look, what I think is very important to have the notion it that, if I work only on the urbanism side or only on the mobility side or only on the I don't-know-what side, we'll not get anywhere. And so, I said at the beginning, there is a set of balances that need to be ensured and make sure not to intervene too much here without neglecting the other. Otherwise, in the mix, efficiency will be lost.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course.

José Manuel Viegas: Because I, if I try to tackle this without being... I can solve the problem now for 2 or 3 years, but then, next... 

Catarina Barreiros: If you even can.

José Manuel Viegas: If I can!

Catarina Barreiros: Because if you tackle mobility... 

José Manuel Viegas: Of course. 

Catarina Barreiros: ... without stirring [overlay of voices].

José Manuel Viegas: I may not be able to influence the rest.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, yes.

José Manuel Viegas: But there are things that we, if we are doing this in a coordinated way, we are capable of doing, for example, in the first years I have to go through here. Then this, however, I have also intervened there, and this problem here will be reduced, and the solution that follows is that one. Therefore, we must have an awareness of the trajectory of interventions here.

Catarina Barreiros: And of time, it seems to me, right? Sometimes it is agility.

José Manuel Viegas: And how much time do we need to achieve this? 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes. And for harmonious evolution. 

José Manuel Viegas: Exactly. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: I think these various areas have to evolve harmoniously, because they complement each other in a city.

José Manuel Viegas: Exactly. Exactly. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: But now, tooting my own horn in relation to the electricity part, I would say the following: we know that, in the context of energy transition, the electricity grid and the electricity system, as a whole – it's not just the grid, it's the electrical system – is undergoing a huge, I would say brutal, transformation, isn't it? And this also has an impact on the city. And this transformation is a transformation that requires, on the one hand, on the production side, more and more production or renewable generation, doesn't it? Based on wind, photo-voltaic, water. But, ultimately, especially now, photo-voltaic energy is developing the most. And the wind remains as is.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. For the citizen, it is the photo-voltaic energy, is it not? We cannot have... but yes, but... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: For the individual consumer...

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... photo-voltaic is the most affordable, it's the easiest, isn't it? 

Catarina Barreiros: Right, exactly. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Then we also have the issue of consumption, where there will also be an electrification of consumption.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: So, in the mobility component, we are seeing the electric car, aren't we?

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: And, therefore, we are changing [00:20:00] the type of energy we consume, transferring a lot of energy to electricity, because it is more easily obtained from renewable sources.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: In cities, what is the impact? Well, what we see… cities are huge consumption centers, they are centers where… cities consume the most substantial part of the energy that is consumed in a country, right? 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: And the energy density is very high in cities. And we see, in fact, for example, the large centers in Portugal, the urban centers, we see with the change of uses of some houses, one used to be a building, became a restaurant. It used to be a store, it becomes a restaurant, or it becomes a hotel. We see an increase in consumption in certain areas of cities, which poses problems from the point of view of the electricity network, which have to be solved, because the space is small. City Councils usually don't like us to build new equipment, because it takes up space, right? How can we, with the little space that exists for the network, how do we manage to increase the power, or, instead of increasing the power, if possible, consume in a more intelligent way, so that...

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... the installation that exists today, is able to charge electric vehicles, to heat houses, to illuminate and so on.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: And, therefore, much of our work is also being done towards finding more intelligent solutions, from the point of view of consumption control and production control, to ensure a permanent balance in the electricity grid, because the amount of energy produced at each moment must be equal to the amount of energy consumed… 

Catarina Barreiros: Consumed, isn't it?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... because if not, we will have imbalance problems in the electricity grid, that cannot happen. Therefore intelligent systems must ensure this balance, at every instant, to make sure I am consuming the same as I am producing. 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: And that's very challenging. That is something we are doing and will continue to do. And that will require the involvement of the various stakeholders, the various entities and people who contribute to consumption and production in the electricity network. And there is a very great increase in complexity here, because, while we had a set of, a dozen large production plants, we are now going to have thousands, tens of thousands of producers, injecting energy into the network at every point in the network. 

Catarina Barreiros: On a smaller scale, isn't it? More quantity and smaller scale.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: On a smaller scale, very distributed… 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: …and, therefore, this poses a network management problem, which is a complicated problem. But at the same time, very challenging. And, therefore, we are working hard in this direction, to ensure that we find management solutions for these injection sources and for the network's consumption sources. Mobility also poses challenges for us, because cars won't charge in the same place every time: it charges here, then charges there, then it can even start feeding the network. And therefore, there are also additional electric mobility challenges, in addition to consumption, [overlapping voices]... 

José Manuel Viegas: That brings about... I, the other day, were... I am now a condominium administrator, we have 25 parking spaces.

The moment we have six electric cars... 

Catarina Barreiros: They can no longer...

José Manuel Viegas: The line that is going to the building can't feed the six at the same time. It does not mean that it won't hold, because there can be an intelligent management of time... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right. Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: It has to be at night...

José Manuel Viegas: ... but maybe it can charge eight. Not more.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Indeed. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Paul Líbano Monteiro: Yes. Yes.

José Manuel Viegas: That is, because, in spite of everything...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Exactly. 

José Manuel Viegas: …most of us are at home at the same time. 

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course.
José Manuel Viegas: And the difference in the price between charging the car at home, and in public places is so great, that most people...

Catarina Barreiros: Will charge at home.

José Manuel Viegas: ... you will want, you will insist that you want to charge the car when you are at home...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... besides that, with the increase in the autonomy of the batteries of the cars, it will become less necessary for me to charge it when I am traveling.

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: And therefore...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: The percentage...

Catarina Barreiros: It will be at the beginning and at the end, right?

José Manuel Viegas: ... the percentage of charging cars... not only in the beginning and at the end, there will be many cases in which we come and go with the same...

Catarina Barreiros: With the same autonomy. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... charge. That is for... because if at the destination of your trip you have to pay at commercial price, there are people who will say: "No..." Imagine, you have to go to Leiria many times, from Lisbon. Today, there are some cars already in the market and, in two years' time there will be even more cars that can do those trips. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right. 

José Manuel Viegas: And if I go... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, yes, yes.

José Manuel Viegas: ... I don't need to pay a commercial price in Leiria. I want to charge here again. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right. 

José Manuel Viegas: But when I get home, I want to have the guarantee that, during the night, I can charge my car. So... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course, yes.

José Manuel Viegas: ... this will raise interesting problems.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: It's the... It will.

José Manuel Viegas: …but I'm sure you're already thinking about it, aren't you? 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, yes. But these are challenging problems and, finally, it will... and then, but, by the way, to continue with this example of the condominium, what is also being formed, or is increasingly expected to exist, are the so-called communities of electrical energy, where several people or several entities, in a nearby physical area, will jointly manage the energy part, the electricity part, in order to balance the consumption of one with the production of the other. I'm now producing, but I don't need to consume. But my neighbor has to charge the car, he needs to consume now. But I'm producing, energy can be used there...

José Manuel Viegas: Yes, yes. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: …and, therefore, this management of smaller cells, communities, in a very autonomous way, is also something that we believe will develop a lot, and that will take advantage, on the one hand, of these distributed resources. This almost… this much greater distribution of [00:25:00] electricity resources. And, at the same time, it will force people to come together and decide on a stronger intervention by civil society, by people, by citizens, to guarantee the sustainability of cities. In this respect, I think this is positive, because it will force people to intervene, to be more interventional, to decide.

José Manuel Viegas: Theoretically, this is just another point on the agenda of the condominiums. But it is often not easy, because there are many condominium members, who do not participate, who...

Catarina Barreiros: Yes. Managing condominiums is a challenge.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: It is. 

José Manuel Viegas: I know it's...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... no, but I have the experience. It is the fourth time I'm an administrator of a condominium... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... so I have some experience of that. And, therefore, I know that, although we have common interests, there is, in this form of collaboration, a problem that is classic, which is the problem of the free loader. The guy that takes advantage of the system but doesn't contribute to it...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... in the end, he pays the quota, but no more...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... and there are many... when we start to have to share our cycles of consumption and production, it is no longer just a problem of money. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: And, therefore, it will result in…

Catarina Barreiros: Some routines, correct?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course. Yes, yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: … and new …

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, these are challenges. 

José Manuel Viegas: And, forms of commitment. 

Catarina Barreiros: Correct. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, that's it. Yeah, it's going to be...

José Manuel Viegas: And therefore it will make this administration a bit more complicated...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... theoretically, the institution is already there, but going back to a more general sustainability problem. The law of horizontal properties does not explicitly foresee, or even implicitly foresee, what is to be done when a building ends its life. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

José Manuel Viegas: How do you manage... 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes. Yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: The end of life of a building...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: An asset that ended. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Yeah, exactly. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Its lifetime is over. 

Catarina Barreiros: That has no possible repair. 

José Manuel Viegas: It has possible repair, but it is very expensive... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... and then people want to leave and indeed leave...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... and some may not have even found someone to sell the house to, they just want to leave... 

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... and, in the end, only 20% remain, who don't have money to keep up with the costs of a building that is decrepit.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: This is not... I mean, there is no formula in the basic law... in the Civil Code, but the chapters dedicated to horizontal property are based on a simplistic interpretation, which I sometimes joke about with my lawyer friends: “This is a lawyer pretending to be managing civil construction.” The construction, concrete is hard, but it is not perpetual. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: And we have to understand that here too there is a life cycle, that must have its end. We are not yet there, but we are getting close. The first buildings in horizontal property, if I'm not mistaken, are from the 60s, of the last century... 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... so they are 60 years old. In 10 or 20 years, we will begin to have significant sustainability problems of this asset... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... they will have to be renovated, and the only formula foreseen... it is not provided for in the law, but the law makes it possible for someone to get there, buy everything, renovate and sell...

Paul Líbano Monteiro: Right.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

José Manuel Viegas: ... but it goes through a concentration operation...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right, right. Yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... and redistribution, but that is not easy. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right, right.

Catarina Barreiros: Because it often prevents or intervenes in the amount of existing houses, in the way they are distributed... 

José Manuel Viegas: All of that. No, but the first thing is that people... there are people who will only want to get rid of that, it is doing nothing but giving them problems.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: But there will be others, because they do not have...

Catarina Barreiros: They don't want it, right. 

José Manuel Viegas: ... alternatives... 

Catarina Barreiros: They will not leave.

José Manuel Viegas: ... who do not want, therefore...

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course. Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

José Manuel Viegas: ... we have to pay attention.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Another aspect that is relevant in this change in which we are participating is the speed at which things happen. In the past, we had great technological evolutions in a generation, and one that was a more disruptive thing. Now, it is a bit more complicated because, perhaps, in the space of a generation, there are several technological developments and some are disruptive. And so how do we manage to... 

José Manuel Viegas: And in several areas. 

Paulo Lebanon Monteiro: And in several areas. And how can we accommodate this with various generations, when we have a meeting with the various condominium members, with older people, younger people, people with more desire to change, people with more desire to remain stagnant, things... 

José Manuel Viegas: And people with more capital as well as people with less capital, right? 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: People with more capital and less capital...

José Manuel Viegas: It also makes a difference, does it not? 

Paul Líbano Monteiro: ...well, how can we harmonize this? This is a major challenge for society and for neighborhoods and condominiums. It's a big challenge. But we are beginning, this...

José Manuel Viegas: Well, but of course, maybe I... in my initial answer, there is a word that I missed, and that is now coming to the surface, so I want to say it explicitly, which is: the collaborative regime...

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

José Manuel Viegas: ... it will have to be a constant presence if we want the common good, which is the city, or society in general, to be sustainable. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: So the key word here often ends up being collaboration.

Catarina Barreiros: Okay, right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: No doubt. 

Catarina Barreiros: It makes perfect sense because, this is interesting, the people who follow these episodes must have already noticed we always go back to the same thing. It is community, collaboration, mutual help, listening... complex problems are not isolated, right? These are problems that we need to solve together.

José Manuel Viegas: Of course. 

Catarina Barreiros: And this is very interesting. And I think there's another thing as well which is learning through collaboration, right? To learn from cities and citizens and companies and governments, which have already done this before us, that have failed, that have refined, have improved and that have [00:30: 00] already made improvements. And, maybe, we could take advantage of this moment to give examples of success stories. Because I know you know success stories, both in terms of energy and in terms of cities. So where are the success stories in cities, in sustainable cities, and how can we learn from them? 

José Manuel Viegas: Oh, what I think is most important to say about this is that there are cities that promote themselves better and cities that promote themselves worse. And that, in general, the cities that we see as an example are exemplary in one aspect or two, not all.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: It is very difficult, despite trying, to be exemplary in all of them. It's like the student who has...

Catarina Barreiros: It's impossible.

José Manuel Viegas: ... 19 in everything... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

José Manuel Viegas: …there are one or two in every 500 or in every 1000 students. And that's it.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes.

José Manuel Viegas: If you want to...

Catarina Barreiros: And usually there have 20s and then 18s and then…

José Manuel Viegas: And then an 18 is a horrible disappointment. The most famous city for being sustainable is Singapore. 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: But it has a problem, the participation of citizens is not that spontaneous, as free as the standards of Western societies. And, therefore, in that division of functions that I had talked about at the beginning, the citizens adhere, but they are less vocal in their...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. It is less democratic.

José Manuel Viegas: In their participation, yes. But Singapore, what it has done... Singapore has very particular conditions, because it is a city-state, which is an island. And therefore, from the get go, it does not have the problem of the deep country. Because the deep country is another country altogether. Yes. It has the conditions that it was able to create. When I was there, about 20 years ago, I talked to some people - they weren't really leaders, but they had some hierarchy already - who told me: "Everything you see from Singapore, there's something you have to be aware of, when Singapore gained its independence in the 1950s, Singapore was the gutter of Southeast Asia which, in turn, was the gutter of the West…" 

Catarina Barreiros: It was the gutter of the gutter. 

José Manuel Viegas: It was the gutter of the gutter. "And therefore all that you see here, for those who were here..." as was the case of that person who spoke to me... "since that time, and I was young then, it is an almost miraculous transformation: the levels of poverty, dirt, insanity, all of which we had here. And you have to realize that much of this muscled democracy, as you call it, has to do with the citizens' recognition that our leaders have been wise to lead us down this almost miraculous path. " So there is a...

Catarina Barreiros: Trust...

José Manuel Viegas: A trust, which is transmitted by the results that have been achieved.

Catarina Barreiros: And by good management, isn't it? Yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: Yes. But, in essence, Singapore has managed to do a very clever thing, which was a strong separation between what the urbanized areas are and what the green areas are. Singapore is on the equator and therefore needs many of these green areas to absorb the large amount of rain it has…

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: …and then have… because it also has a lot of people, it wanted to be attractive and it managed to do that, to call in a very capable population, who come from many places in the world, a highly… a high-performance mobility system. This turns out to be relatively simple. Why? Because they have density with functional diversity. Therefore, they achieved density, and were - not at first - they were able to recover functional diversity for each of their neighborhoods...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: And it is above all in these two dimensions that Singapore is excellent. We have other cities where it's a mixture of citizen participation, others where… for example, Barcelona is now famous because of mobility and superblocks, as they call it. Superblocks only work if they have functional diversity. They have to have density and functional diversity, Barcelona, ​​40 years ago, did not have that, it was still building it. And, from the moment it reached a certain varied density, it realized that it was possible… the superblocks of Barcelona… it is not the city of 15 minutes, but the city of 10 minutes. 

Catarina Barreiros: Okay, even better.

José Manuel Viegas: Yes. You are able to walk to many different places. As long as you come by car from abroad, you can do that. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. You don't have to go to the other end of town to be able to go to a health service, an education service…

José Manuel Viegas: There are many of these functions on the block…

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

José Manuel Viegas: Inside such a super-block, which, in essence, is three blocks by three blocks...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: And the blocks are a little big, but we are talking about things like... no more than 600 m by 600 m. So anything like 25, 30 hectares is already a good area. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

José Manuel Viegas: But that is the size of our downtown. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Our downtown is 200 and so by 300 and so. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Um-hum.

José Manuel Viegas: Yes. 

Catarina Barreiros: But nobody lives there. 

José Manuel Viegas: No, some people live there... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas:... but we lack functional diversity.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Even the functions that are there have little diversity. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Ok. But this has a lot to do with the political decisions surrounding the process [00:35: 00]. It should not be the task of the Government nor the City Council nor the Central Government to say: "Number 28 on that street has to have such a function." But what it has to say is: "The tax regime… how much do you pay in taxes? You have these values if they are within these ranges for these functions, and they have much more serious values ​​if they are not." In Lisbon, this was tried once. 

Catarina Barreiros: Tax incentives, therefore. 

José Manuel Viegas: Yes. Tax and regulatory incentives. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: I remember, in 1980, I did traffic studies for what turned out to be the new Monumental complex. In the past, it was a cinema, now it has a shopping center, with cinemas, and all that. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: I still remember the Monumental. 

José Manuel Viegas: Exactly. Interestingly, with regard to information issues, it is worth saying that, in 1982, the City Council, in the official cartography, did not yet have the 1953 cinema. That has improved a lot today. That was a curiosity. But, at the time, the traffic impact values ​​we had were very strong. And in the conversations we had with the president of the City Hall, at the time, Eng. Abecasis, we brought this to his attention. And he was able to, in the conditions for licensing enterprises, in a relatively vast area around Saldanha Square, it was obligatory to have housing, at least, in, I no longer remember if it was 25 or if it was 30%. 

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

José Manuel Viegas: It didn't have to be in every building, but it had to be in every block. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

José Manuel Viegas: And, therefore, in this case, it was not even fiscal, it was regulatory, from the beginning. But with this, it is possible to see...

Catarina Barreiros: Diversity was created.

José Manuel Viegas:... I think it is still in place, that there is a set of housing buildings that are being made in these areas. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: When, at the time, the temptation was building all for offices. 

Catarina Barreiros: They made more immediate profit.

José Manuel Viegas: That was what gave the most money. But it's normal for the real estate developer to think like that. It is up to the political power to have this vision as a whole...

Catarina Barreiros: To regulate.

José Manuel Viegas: ... and establish the beacons. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Of course. Of course.

José Manuel Viegas: And so it is possible to do this. There has to be lucidity, long-term vision, and realize that when urbanism is unbalanced, then everything else, cannot...

Catarina Barreiros: It will be compromised.

José Manuel Viegas:... recover. It's all compromised, isn't it?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Regarding the electrical part, the electrical system, there are some cities… Catarina asked, I would say… first, she asked if we learned from others, and we certainly did. I would say that we have to pay attention and not reinvent the wheel, to learn from what others do, good or bad. That is fundamental. When we started with the InovGrid project, more than 10 years ago, we made several visits. I remember we went to Boulder, Colorado, we went to Gothenburg, we went to Amsterdam, we went to Paris, a number of places, we talked a lot with our counterparts, with other distribution companies in other countries, to learn what they were doing and also to share what we were thinking about doing. And that was essential in order to better define our concept, what we wanted to do, how we were going to do it. At the beginning of this InovGrid project, which is the project of smart networks, smart grids, we decided to define a place of operation, which was the municipality of Évora, but it was the whole of the municipality, to test a solution for smart networks that would also maintain the smart city, the city of Évora and the municipality of Évora. And it was an experience that started in 2010, more or less, with the installation of meters, the installation of solutions, the public lighting part, and so on. It was a fundamental experience for us to gain awareness of what were the best solutions for the electricity network, on the one hand, but to understand the receptivity of consumers, of stakeholders, and also of the city council, which was also involved, and to understand the impact of what we were doing. What impact did it have? Is it positive? Do we have a benefit? We don't? And based on Évora, what was it? Évora has about 30,000 consumers, has 50... the municipality has or had 54 thousand inhabitants. And it is a county that had a consumption around the average, a little above the average for Portugal, per capita consumption… 

Catarina Barreiros: Per capita?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... or by point of consumption. And it was possible to measure in Évora, we then compared it with the municipality next door, with Montemor, I believe. We compared the evolution of consumption before and after we installed the intelligent network solution. And it was possible to measure a reduction in consumption in the Évora area, just based on the fact that consumers now had invoices for actual consumption, instead of being…

Catarina Barreiros: An estimate. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro:... an estimate, because the person who did the readings went there from time to time, four times a year. But that is one thing, another thing is having the real value every month. And therefore, if I make an effort to consume less, my bill that month goes down. If I don't make the effort, I'm not careful, the bill goes up, and the person feels... 

Catarina Barreiros: It is a great incentive. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: It's an incentive. Or a disincentive...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... to the behavior of the person. On this basis, we have estimated a reduction of nearly 4% for two consecutive years. It was a lot, I wasn't expecting so much. But comparing with the municipality of Montemor.

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right. 

Paulo Lebanon Monteiro: It was a lot. And for those customers who still had the devices at home after that, who were able to interact more immediately - these displays. Efficiency still managed to be a little higher.

Catarina Barreiros: When we see consumption immediately, isn't it? We manage [00:40: 00] to adjust our behavior immediately, right?

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Indeed. And we have a display. And we see, now we are consuming more than yesterday, or we are consuming at the peak hour, and things like that. And also with tips. We also gave tips: "You're a little above what is average for people." Or: "You have a very high level of consumption at night, there are equipments that can be turned off." Stuff like that.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: We have indeed achieved a very large reduction in the level of consumption. Very large, 4% is worth a lot, isn't it? In terms of energy, it is a number...

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, yes. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... very significant. And then, of course, the benefits associated with the smart grid, from the standpoint of field operations becoming remote, from the standpoint of having lower grid losses, commercial losses and technical losses. It was very relevant. Based on that, we then decided which was the best solution. And then we moved to the rest of Portugal. What are we doing now? At this moment, we are doing the rollout of smart grids and, in particular, smart metering – isn't it? – of the smart meters. We already have about 3 and a half million meters installed in 6 million, or just over 6 million. We are currently installing, in the Porto area, in the city of Porto, what we call the Porto energy transition accelerator. We want to set up a sort of demonstrator of what the network should be, including the electricity network, within a short time. And, therefore, tackling the area of photo-voltaic production management, addressing electric mobility with intelligent charging, addressing public lighting as well, the evolution to LEDs and, then, a more unitary management of each of the LED luminaries, so that the public lightning networks can also be used for other services and then also creating a demonstration center at the city of Porto, where all of it can be seen on screens and where one can see a few information about the energetic transition. And, therefore, the citizen as a space available where he can get a very complete idea. On the one hand, of what is being done in Porto, but, on the other hand, what is this about the energy transition, what are the impacts, what are they... how can we act, how can we intervene…

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: …and make a difference from the point of view of this transition. Therefore, I would say that, for us, from the point of view of the electrical system, learning from others was fundamental. And even today we share information systematically with…

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: ... operators from other countries. 

Catarina Barreiros: And with the citizens, apparently… 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: And with the citizens, obviously. With citizens. Because their involvement is fundamental, isn't it? 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes. Yes.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: We are consumers, or we are producers. Without this involvement, the energy transition cannot be made. This involvement is essential. It has been happening, it has been happening. And increasingly faster, more intensive. But therefore I would say: the path... and to give a positive note, because in fact the challenges are complex, this is not easy, the problems we have in the condominium, in fact, exist.

Catarina Barreiros: On a large scale in cities. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: On a large scale in cities, but the truth is that the path is being made. I mean, things are evolving, things are getting better…

José Manuel Viegas: Indeed. But we have a serious problem in Portugal, which is: we like to see what others have done, but we are very afraid to be the first to do it. Very afraid. 

Catarina Barreiros: [Overlay of voices].

José Manuel Viegas: The number of times, throughout my life, that has happened to me: "But was this done before?" I'm a bit fertile in imagination. But I built something, I had a PhD student who did something called “Smart BUS Corridor.” Between having that published and being able to put a demonstration on the ground, it took 5 years. 

Catarina Barreiros: Fast. 

José Manuel Viegas: 5 years. It was fast. 

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: It was fast. But it was necessary to have in the Ministry and in the Lisbon City Hall, people I knew well, who knew me well, and who believed it could work. And we had papers published. They were public. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: Despite that… then we did the demonstration. The time that the buses took to go... this was in Alameda da Universidade, in the year 2005, the time that the buses took to go, from one end to the other, from up here, behind the rectory, down to the Campo Grande intersection, was less than half. Less than half. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: From where to where? From...

José Manuel Viegas: From above, from where the station is, near the subway station, near the old cafeteria. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, I know. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: It was on that curve. 

Paulo Lebanon Monteiro: Yes.

José Manuel Viegas: To the Campo Grande intersection, which was the place where often... 

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

José Manuel Viegas: ... the cars...

Paulo Lebanon Monteiro: It's a short thing, yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: It's one kilometer... 

Paulo Lebanon Monteiro: Yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: No, but look. Very important, because that's where traffic jams usually happened. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes. 

Catarina Barreiros: Even because it is an area of… 

José Manuel Viegas: And the buses ended up locked in there. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: … and it didn't have the width to have a BUS corridor. And what was done was a BUS corridor, which turned on when the bus was coming and there was a jam, and then turned off when there were no buses. Because the buses used to be around ten an hour. Not more. So we had 5 minutes between one bus having passed and the other coming, we had 5 minutes in which we could give that to traffic. So the idea here was to have a smart lane. At the time, I called it intermittent, for humility sake rather than something else. It worked very well. This paper has more than 100 quotes worldwide today. And in Portugal, the question was: "It is not elsewhere, so perhaps we should not do it." There are more examples like this. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Yes, yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: We always do this thing: "If it's not done yet, we'll let others take the risk of innovation...

Catarina Barreiros: When the French do it, we will follow.

José Manuel Viegas: … 500 years ago, we weren't like that, but it is what it is. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: But where [00:45:00] electricity is concerned, it's not quite like that. 

José Manuel Viegas: And that is a good thing. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: We are more innovative in that area. And we are...

José Manuel Viegas: Yes, yes.

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: …many times ahead, yes, yes. 

José Manuel Viegas: But, once again, there is a company that decides to take the risk. 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right. 

José Manuel Viegas: On the side of… 

Paulo Líbano Monteiro: Right, it's true.

José Manuel Viegas: …public authorities, there is more fear. Let's see. And then, we are also very selective, as Catarina was saying, perhaps for reasons of ease of language, we will copy more things that were done in France, a little less so in England, but it is much more difficult to get stuff from the Nordics, the Dutch and the Germans, because there is always a translator in the middle and, therefore, we always lose a bit. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

José Manuel Viegas: But, you see, more important than where we get our inspiration from is having the courage...

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

José Manuel Viegas: ... of being the first to do it. And that, unfortunately, is very rare. It is very rare. 

Catarina Barreiros: I think this is a very positive note to close our conversation with, because, in the end, we were talking about a problem, but it is a problem that lead to something positive. And I think if I want to give a final note here, it is: we are always talking about collaboration, we are always talking about community, because cities are where most of us live, and we need everyone in this conversation. And we know, through the title of this podcast that it's now or never. 

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast "It is now or never" on Spotify or edp.com.