Transcription:

We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future.

Catarina Barreiros: Hello, my name is Catarina Barreiros, in the Do Zero project I'm looking for answers to the many questions about sustainability and this is the podcast "It is Now or Never," an EDP podcast where we discuss the present so that we can present solutions for a more sustainable world in the future. Today, we are going to talk about climate change and I have with me Júlia Seixas and Sara Goulartt. Júlia Seixas, professor and researcher in the field of energy and climate change, coordinator for the Climate-KIC Hub Portugal and the Energy & Climate line of the CENSE Research Centre. Sara, graduated in Environmental Engineering and is Júlia's student. Graduated in Environmental Engineering from Universidade Nova de Lisboa, Master in Environmental Economics and Energy from ISEG, she has been at EDP since 2000 and, since 2007, is responsible for the sustainability, environmental and climate area of the Sustainability Directorate of EDP. Thank you so much for being here. And let's start with a big theme that is SDG13, climate action. And I would like to ask, Júlia, what climate change is, how does it present itself, how we are contributing to it as individual people and as a species.

Júlia Seixas: Well, that is a very big question. I will try to give a short answer. Climate change... we use the term "climate change" to refer to a different pattern of Planet Earth's climate when compared to the climate of the past. In this comparison, we have a reference in the past that is the era before the Industrial Revolution. Because it was the Industrial Revolution that allowed for gigantic progress for humanity, promoted standards of health, food and comfort as never before, but to achieve these standards, we had to consume coal, at first, and then oil and after that natural gas. And these three fossil fuels, when burned, release CO2 into the atmosphere. And what happens to this CO2 in the atmosphere? Well, it contributes to a kind of - let's think of it this way - a kind of increase in the blanket that already exists naturally, because naturally, we have CO2 in the atmosphere, methane, etc.. And it's a good thing that we have them, because it allows for a pleasant temperature on Earth and that temperature is necessary for life. If there wasn't this little blanket, life wouldn't exist on earth. In fact, this is called the greenhouse effect. We have a natural greenhouse effect. But when we burn a lot of fossil fuels, we are increasing the number of blankets, or making them thicker and, then, the energy of the sun fails to escape into space and we get warmer, within this greenhouse. And, so, this is what has been happening since the Industrial Revolution, with a faster and more intense pattern since 1950, after the end of the Second World War. This has an explanation later. 

Catarina Barreiros: Consumption also increased, didn't it?

Júlia Seixas: Consumption increased. It is from the 1950/60 that all charts show exponential growth in various areas of consumption and, as a consequence, of energy and fossil fuels. And, therefore, climate change is connected to this phenomenon which has exacerbated the greenhouse effect. The result is that, today, when compared to the climate before the Industrial Revolution, the global temperature is, on average terms of the planet, 1ºC warmer than at that time. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. So the human weight is clearly marked by the Industrial Revolution?

Júlia Seixas: Right.

Catarina Barreiros: So our activity has increased this exponential graph, which remains exponential and is not predicted when... or do you think...?

Júlia Seixas: In terms of energy consumption, yes, it continues; in terms of emissions, we begin to detect the principle of stabilization. Global accounting is done every year by a large group of scientists. The project is called Global Carbon Project and every year it takes stock of the global CO2 emissions on the planet. And, in the last 2 years, we have begun to see a tendency not to grow, to stabilize and, so, we will... have to wait a few more years to see what this stabilization really means. I am not talking about this year's emissions. This year is a particular case.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Right. Right.

Sara Goulartt: But this is already an achievement.

Catarina Barreiros: It's an achievement. 

Sara Goulartt: It's an accounting, we have to have in mind that we have a world population...

Catarina Barreiros: That is growing. 

Sara Goulartt: In accelerated growing. 

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly. That is why I was asking. This chart - because when I think of carbon charts, I also remember a chart that was said to be exponential, but it is already predicted that in 2100 it will stabilize, that graph is about population growth - but I wanted to understand what was happening with carbon growth. That is indeed good news. And it's good news, because the energy sector is also undergoing a transition and decarbonizing, isn't it?

Sara Goulartt: Yes. The energy sector, the electric sector in this case, because it can use renewable energies, can't it?

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Right.

Sara Goulartt: And, in fact, the sector is a sector undergoing a huge... I wouldn't call it a transformation, it's almost a revolution, because it's a very short moment, not that very long ago there wasn't any idea about how it was going to be done and, suddenly, it was almost like... what I feel is that there was a worldwide critical mass behind it. The acceleration of technologies and of... not of technological development, but of lowering to levels that are economically competitive. This has been achieved and I think it is very interesting to see that the models themselves have been recurrently misleading. They were more conservative than what has happened, because, in fact, unlike in the past, there was a huge population of people who have dedicated themselves to forming...

Catarina Barreiros: Making it happen.

Sara Goulartt: Exactly. And with this what can be achieved? Today, we are already seeing the economic conditions for this transformation to happen and a sector that until a very short time ago was a highly penalized sector from a reputation point of view - because it was effectively responsible for greenhouse gas emissions...

Catarina Barreiros: But without that much of an alternative for transition, right?

Sara Goulartt: But it is hard to understand how it... because we have to remember that electricity is an essential good, isn't it? And so we all need it.

Catarina Barreiros: We have to reach everyone, don't we?

Sara Goulartt: And that's why it was a sector that felt the strain. "Yes, yes, we want to, but how are we going to do this?" And suddenly the conditions began to exist. And it is very interesting to see that, today, it is a sector that suddenly is capable of being a solution. A solution for us domestic consumers, but a solution too for many other sectors that could not decarbonize. 

Catarina Barreiros: The so called industry.

Sara Goulartt: They had not yet found the way to do so, as it happens with the transport sector. Hence all the talk. The sector... of course the entire building sector, the commercial sector, can seize to produce carbon and a significant part of the industry can follow suit. It is not... electricity will not solve all the problems. Renewable electricity will not solve all problems. There are still a lot... there are still great challenges here, even technological ones, but yes, the sector today can respond and will, not only decarbonize, but help the other sectors to decarbonize. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Because it is important, Júlia talked about how the Industrial Revolution marked the use of coal, oil and natural gas. It was the Industrial Revolution that also allowed all industries and everything around us to begin mass production and made products more democratic and consumption much easier. Therefore, of course, the energy sector would have to have a great responsibility, but it is interesting to realize that this responsibility is shared with all the other services that use this energy, right? Therefore, it is good that the solution effectively goes...

Júlia Seixas: In any case... it is as Sara said, but it is important to put these developments in perspective. I think that in global terms we are at a crossroads. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Júlia Seixas: At a crossroads, because the truth is that the data, the balance sheets for 2019 - for 2020 we still do not have much information - but those of 2019 show that 84% of all world energy originates from fossil fuels. 84%! So...

Sara Goulartt: And even electricity. 67% comes from fossil origin.

Júlia Seixas: And even electricity. Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: Global, isn't it?

Sara Goulartt: Yes, global.

Júlia Seixas: So the solutions exist. In many countries, these are entering at a very great speed - this transformation that Sara has mentioned - but putting this into a global perspective, we still have a long way to go and it will take some time. 

Sara Goulartt: A long while.

Catarina Barreiros: And especially because we are talking about countries in the global south that still need to leverage energy and electricity to bring the population to the levels of development that we have in the global north, right? So this means that countries with many people, like India, like... 

Júlia Seixas: Right.

Catarina Barreiros: They are still trying...

Sara Goulartt: And poorer.

Júlia Seixas: Right. Well. Well, it depends. There are several phases, so to speak. Because for example, the big blocks like the... the big emitting blocks, China...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. China, the United States... 

Júlia Seixas: ... the United States, China, Europe, [00:10:00] Russia, India and Japan - I think it is these six that make up 65-70% of emissions - all of these blocks in some way have felt pressure from the start in the context of the Paris Agreement to set up a deadline to reduce their emissions. In 2020, it made news when China announced that it wants to be carbon neutral in 2060. Europe had already announced 2050 for itself. But for example, Russia announced a reduction in its emissions in 2030, compared to those of 1990, we do not know anything... everything points to Russia's carbon neutrality going further towards the end of the century. India does not say much... it says yes, that it is making every effort to reduce internally, and it is, there is a gigantic explosion of photovoltaic farms in India, but... these countries have, let's say, that have the global pressure over them feel a little...

Catarina Barreiros: Like it is their responsibility.

Júlia Seixas:... Like it is their responsibility. But there are many other countries that in fact when... when I was referring to access to energy, and according to SDG7, access to accessible and clean energy, let's say, it was good that, in international terms, there was a certain context for these countries that allows them to go directly to the last stage...

Catarina Barreiros: They would jump, without passing through the starting house.

Sara Goulartt: They would jump, without using fossil fuels. Therefore, they do not need to follow the path all other countries had to.

Catarina Barreiros: Hum-hum. It is an interesting subject, when one of the proposals of the Paris Agreement was being discussed 2 or 3 years ago the question was: is it fair to ask the countries that have not yet reached that stage of development to not have the same opportunity as us? And everyone came together to say: "we help them do better than we did."

Júlia Seixas: Yes, because one thing is to have access to the goods and services that enable these countries to develop.

Catarina Barreiros: Another thing is the way you get there. 

Júlia Seixas: Another thing is the way, particularly in terms of fossils. Yes.

Sara Goulartt: Telecommunications, I think, are an example, aren't they?

Júlia Seixas: Exactly.

Sara Goulartt: Africa got the cellphone. It jumped the phone.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Right. It is a beautiful example.

Sara Goulartt: But there's a big challenge. The truth is that it is a big challenge in countries that have huge poverty issues and that access...

Catarina Barreiros: Where there is no light at home. And to offer electricity to 10.000.000, 20.000.000, 100.000.000 people represents...

Júlia Seixas: But this is a movement that has been improving. We have to understand... the number of people without access to electricity is currently around 1000.000.000 or somewhere around that number.

Sara Goulartt: 1000.000.000. It has gone down. In recent years, it has been possible to take the number down a little.

Júlia Seixas: It's a little bit below, OK. The question is that the world's population is also increasing, so that percentage in relative terms...

Sara Goulartt: Exactly. It's always there, isn't it?

Catarina Barreiros: It's flexible.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. So we have to move faster, at a higher rate than the population is increasing.

Catarina Barreiros: Right. Right.

Júlia Seixas: But in the last 10 years a huge effort has been made with significant results. One of the negative points of this pandemic has been the slowing down of these programs...

Catarina Barreiros: Development programs.

Júlia Seixas:... development programs, precisely. And we will probably feel the effects of these programs slowing down, yes.

Catarina Barreiros: It is also interesting to see that poverty is also a subject of climate change and is also a subject of sustainability. We have to eradicate poverty. In fact, the SDGs also talk about eradicating poverty. And you talked about cooling down and I thought it was very timely because I was going to ask you about the Paris Agreement. The goals are very ambitious. Initially, we spoke of 1.5°C, we are trying to get to 2°C. It can't go beyond that. What do we have to do to reach these 2°C? We have already talked about decarbonisation, but what really needs to happen in practical terms in order to achieve these ambitious figures?

Júlia Seixas: It is necessary, for example, that these six blocks that we were referring to earlier are committed to the cause and have the right policies to achieve carbon neutrality. In 2050, 2060, around that. It is clear that many studies and several scientists have said that it may be a little late by 2050, 2060. We should accelerate towards carbon neutrality a little earlier. And in this respect, for example, the European Council approved two or three weeks ago the reduction of emissions in Europe by 55% in 2030, when the initial proposal was 40. And therefore, Europe, in fact, is showing a lot of leadership in terms of reducing emissions. But we know that these transformations are not fast, we have to work on the entire production system [00:15:00] everything that feeds us - feeds not only in terms of food, but on gadget...

Sara Goulartt: The needs. 

Júlia Seixas:... the need for clothes, mobility, everything. The whole production system has to change and also... even the part of consumption. I believe that if we focus solely and exclusively on the production system, which is significant, and that is where, in my point of view, the priorities and spotlights of public policies should be. But we also have to pay attention to consumption and options... and have an education for sustainability. I think that doesn't exist in a transversal way across all societies.

Catarina Barreiros: And that's very difficult, isn't it? Education for sustainability implies a level of engagement with the issue that has to be adequate for each age and has to be... it is not an easy subject.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. But if we are introducing it...

Catarina Barreiros: At school. 

Júlia Seixas:... at school, for example. That is where we have to start, because that is where the real revolutions begin. It is with the new generations from a very early age. I think we can do it. And we cannot... we speak of a climate emergency, in the sense that we see the years going by, we see the United Nations conferences year after year, and we feel that we are... making that transformation very slowly, right? But... and, so, there is this notion of climate emergency and all of us as consumers, more or less organized, we must do... we must have... we must put pressure on public policy, governments, in the most constructive way we can. 

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hm. Even by voting.

Júlia Seixas: Voting. By voting. But a little more active maybe. Make the use of the so-called active citizenship, for this aspect.

Sara Goulartt: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right.

Júlia Seixas: But we have to understand that transformation... what is on the table is a transformation like humanity has never seen before and, therefore, we have to remain tranquil and hopeful that the policies have their effects and wait that... and while we must remain calm, education for sustainability needs to start now. Right this moment! 

Catarina Barreiros: [Overlay of voices], right.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. With young people, with children. 

Sara Goulartt: Yes. I think that has strength. The consumer has strength in companies and I think we need to know that. We need to demand more transparency in information, more clarity. I think this also helps companies to respond correctly, doesn't it? And sometimes it's about changing the way companies and the final consumer relate. And I think...

Catarina Barreiros: Having an effective relationship. And not a service provider and a...

Sara Goulartt: Yes. We... yes, and pedagogical. Therefore, the consumer demands that the role of that product is made clear...

Catarina Barreiros: Right. The one he is consuming.

Sara Goulartt: And companies, on the other hand, also explain how that product reaches the market. What that means. And that transparency should be encouraged.

Júlia Seixas: In addition to transparency, I think there are still many areas of innovation to be explored.

Sara Goulartt: Ouch! Of course.

Júlia Seixas: What it is... how does the consumer know and have access to, for example, the history of a product? It is very difficult. At the moment, that does not exist.

Sara Goulartt: Exactly. What we call the product passport.

Júlia Seixas: The product passport, for example. We don't have that information.

Catarina Barreiros: Where did the product come from, how was it made, how did it reach me?

Sara Goulartt: Yes, yes.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. Have you ever imagined the amount of work that has to be done on this? New structures, for example, of information that trace the product from its origin. All of this...

Catarina Barreiros: In a clear way.

Júlia Seixas: In a clear way. There are skills, there is technology for that. We are talking about digital systems. We may be talking about smart packaging that we can see. And so everything is... there is plenty to do.

Catarina Barreiros: It's true.

Júlia Seixas: And so if there is a certainty that I have - and I am a teacher at Universidade Nova de Lisboa and, therefore, I do... I train environmental engineers - if there is one thing that I am sure about is that there is an enormous need for this profession and its competences. I'm not saying of the environmental engineer itself, but of these skills, in the sense of transforming the planet so it can reach a more sustainable stage. 

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hm. And that transparency, that information is the key point for the consumer, because the consumer does not know, nor does he have to know in depth...

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. It has to be easy for them to have options.

Catarina Barreiros: It has to be easy.

Sara Goulartt: That's it, the skills exist, but the theme is complex, so, we need not only to get there, we have to translate it. Translate it to the consumer.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, yes, yes. Let it not be...

Sara Goulartt: In order to make it... I think the nutritional information, for example, did it very well.

Júlia Seixas: Indeed.

Sara Goulartt: We, nowadays... I, at least, can understand it, right?

Catarina Barreiros: Yes, it was made simple.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly.

Sara Goulartt: Uncomplicated. We know where the sugars are, where the salt is. We have three variables, maybe four, and rather quickly...

Catarina Barreiros: We know to what information we have to pay attention to because there has been communication in this sense and...

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. Color codes. 

Sara Goulartt: Yes. And these simplified codes if the consumer is educated to ask for them, I think companies are also naturally able to respond. And it helps them understand what their real impact is.

Catarina Barreiros: I feel that at this moment we have many certifications and the consumer has no idea what those certifications mean. A generalized transversal action is needed.

Júlia Seixas: Yes, it needs a simpler language.

Catarina Barreiros: Indeed. That's right.

Júlia Seixas: Because a product is certified, but it can be certified in relation to its aspect: A, B, C and D. 

Catarina Barreiros: And that doesn't mean anything about Y and the consumer thinks it does.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. Exactly. Therefore, there is work to be done to unravel and simplify the language of sustainability to the consumer. 

Sara Goulartt: And this theme has been identified. I think that in some way, from a European point of view, in the Green Deal, this discussion exists about... labeling, the certification of labeling. But I also think it's an important path to thread. 

Catarina Barreiros: That's what I was going to say. We now have proposals from the European Union - and perhaps we should focus on the next point in government action - we have proposals from the European Union, for example, to target greenwashing and to force brands to explain to the consumer in which way is their product better. And if they don't know how to explain, they won't be able to advertise it. So, this is a proposal from the European Union and, like this one, there are other interesting proposals on climate action. I was going to ask what is... or what are two governmental initiatives that are already being implemented and what is still lacking in terms of concrete government action. What remains to be done to make this system clearer and more transparent for consumers? What remains to be done in terms of government policy?

Júlia Seixas: This discussion that Sara and Catarina are referring to is taking place at the level of the European Union and of course, due to good contamination, it will reach the member states, but there is still a lot... I mean, in terms of governmental decision, I don't think if… you mentioned the member states, at the national level, there is still… I think there is very little done.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok.

Júlia Seixas: That is, we already have experience in communicating with the consumer. There are many codes of communication aimed at consumers. But for sustainability, which is a very complex topic, because we have to think that even if I have a product that I am consuming and that was produced in a region of Portugal - in Trás-os-Montes, in Alentejo, in Algarve - I also have a competitor that gives me the same product, but that product comes either from China or India, or… wherever, it doesn't matter. This is a huge difference. And it is necessary for this to be transmitted to the final consumer and for them to understand what is at stake. We have to pay attention – and the levels of complexity are indeed high – since many times when we choose not to consume products that come from outside – personally I try to do that. We in Portugal have many products that come from Peru, Mexico, etc. – I am also aware that, at the same time, I am failing to contribute to a series of social development in these countries. And, therefore, the decision is far from simple.

Sara Goulartt: It's not.

Catarina Barreiros: Also because in terms of, for example, food, I remember a study I saw recently about tomato production in the United Kingdom and… I don't remember which country it was, a warmer country, and it compensated to bring the product from the country further away because tomato production was more efficient in that country due to the climatic conditions.

Júlia Seixas: Of course.

Catarina Barreiros: Sometimes importing has benefits for the country's action as well…

Júlia Seixas: But this is a well-known example. For example, the production of vegetables here in Portugal versus the production of the same vegetables in the UK. There they have to be grown in greenhouses.

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. In greenhouses.

Júlia Seixas: The energy consumption associated with greenhouses is much higher than the production…

Catarina Barreiros: Than transport from Portugal to the UK.

Júlia Seixas: Than transporting from Portugal to the UK.

Catarina Barreiros: That would be interesting to see in a package, wouldn't it? It would be interesting to see how many kilometers this product traveled and the impact of this package. Is there a payoff or not? 

Júlia Seixas: Indeed.

Catarina Barreiros: It would be interesting. It would require a great deal of transparency for all producers.

Júlia Seixas: It requires a new perspective to address the problem of consumption. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Júlia Seixas: It requires a production chain for information and an information vehicle that does not yet exist. 

Sara Goulartt: And traceability.

Júlia Seixas: And traceability. Indeed… but I think sooner or later that's where we're going to get.

Sara Goulartt: It's the way. It is the way. 

Catarina Barreiros: This traceability already exists to a certain extent in energy, doesn't it?

Sara Goulartt: Yes. Our sector is a very regulated sector. We, for example, the invoice that everyone receives the invoice saying what emissions we have, etc.. Right?

Catarina Barreiros: We receive the invoice, we receive it. Always.

Sara Goulartt: But with emissions, with their...

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right. 

Sara Goulartt: We know how much we are emitting and we do it with transparency, but it is recognized that it depends a lot on the size of the companies, on the sector of activity.

Júlia Seixas: Of course. Of course. 

Sara Goulartt: And so it's not the same for everyone. There is a path that is being made, which we, for example… because of the invoices, it is easy to share CO2 emissions, small companies already know how much CO2 they emit. Therefore, this is a chain, each one contributes with its role, the sum of the parts results in an increased ease for the final consumer. We need to put in the pieces. Some already do it, others don't, but the chain is being completed. 

Catarina Barreiros: It's interesting, I was saying "small companies already know how much they emit," that's very interesting because they already have tools in their hands to do better every month or every year, to be able to, somehow, offset their emissions, those that they can effectively reduce. It would be interesting to see that for the consumer, because in reality the consumer knows how much he emits, but he has no idea what 5 kg of carbon dioxide is.

Sara Goulartt: Yes, but that's really hard, isn't it? I myself am not sure what 5 kg of carbon dioxide is. 

Catarina Barreiros: I think it's difficult for everyone, but it would be interesting for people to understand where they're spending more and less, isn't it? In mobility...

Sara Goulartt: Of course, it's relative. It is in the relationship between products, in the relationship between choices. Yes, yes. Of course. Of course, yes.

Catarina Barreiros: We were talking about government action a little while ago, we began to discuss very interesting subjects and I would like to ask in relation to companies, namely in the energy sector - because it is one of the heaviest sectors, but one that has more technology and that it is currently managing to decarbonize - how can government action help a faster energy transition?

Sara Goulartt: Because this is a transformation. The reality is that there are certain technologies that… and business models and trends that go a bit ahead of the regulation itself, right? So what happens is that governments have to be very attentive to what are the barriers to operationalization. And this has happened and this sector has happened in particular, because there are certain solutions that are found in a sudden manner, but there is no regulatory framework that allows them to be operationalized. And very recently the photovoltaic farm... one of the themes that was frozen for a while was being able to share within the condominium, because there was no regulatory framework that would allow for this. Today, it is solved. What happens is that there needs to be a very close dialogue between those who buy, those who sell, those who regulate. There is a triangle here and then there is the academy that develops, and innovation, because we all have to be very frontal in identifying "look, we want to go from here to there," but we have barriers, what are these barriers? And if each one can identify the barriers easily and frontally, assume them in a transparent way, we will each one of us play our role and that is what is happening. I really think the Paris Agreement is the vision, isn't it? In which the private sector participates, collaborates, comes forward and says: "Look, it's okay, we can do it, but help us!" Is it not? "Help us!" And this dialogue has been very enriching and, today, we see governments reacting in a much more accelerated way too. So, from a framing point of view, there are many different situations.

Catarina Barreiros: Legal frameworks, right? Hum-hum.

Sara Goulartt: And mostly what happens is that we're all very creative, human beings. It is true. Sometimes, overnight, extraordinary solutions appear, but then they do not have the regulatory framework and all this takes a long time to be operational.

Catarina Barreiros: So, legal mechanisms have to be created. 

Sara Goulartt: No. What needs to be done? We need to be in constant conversations with each other saying "we found this, but this is not possible because of that," right? In comes someone who makes the regulatory framework, in comes someone who identifies stakeholders, who in some way may be affected, because normally there are trade offs that have to be evaluated. But I would say it's happening much faster... this last decade... in the last 5 years things are happening at a speed they didn't when I graduated - right? – 20 years ago, because for us the theme is many years old, it's not new, right?

Catarina Barreiros: Of course, yes.

Sara Goulartt: But it actually feels like it's always new, because things happen so quickly.

Catarina Barreiros: And technology evolves a lot, doesn't it?

Sara Goulartt: Very fast.

Catarina Barreiros: Everything that was true yesterday may be less relevant today, right?

Sara Goulartt: Yes. 

Júlia Seixas: In any case, it's true, but it depends a lot on the vision and political commitment that a specific government or public policy places on the subject. The pressure you put on the subject.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. OK. 

Júlia Seixas: And that depends a lot on the actors that exist at any given time, by the way. The American case is a very paradigmatic case.

Sara Goulartt: Indeed. Exactly.

Júlia Seixas: We, in the last 4 years, I mean, the issue of climate change…

Sara Goulartt: Disappeared.

Júlia Seixas: In terms of the Federal Government, it was frozen.

Catarina Barreiros: Right.

Júlia Seixas: It remains to be said that American society is very alive, it is very proactive…

Catarina Barreiros: Companies are also very close to citizens, aren't they?

Júlia Seixas: Companies and cities continued to make their way in this transformation, so it was not like the Federal Government stopped... and the theme stopped... that...

Catarina Barreiros: That nothing happened.

Júlia Seixas: That nothing happened. On the contrary. And now we are waiting and everything indicates that we are going to have the United States in the forefront again, with the ambition for the timely transformation of the world system, because an important point that governments… which is in the hands of governments is… has to do with an instrument that puts a price on CO2 emissions. In Europe, we have this mechanism, which is a mechanism of the European Emissions Trading System, in which thousands of industrial installations are present, in which the energy installations are present, be it the refinery, coal, gas, etc... And the truth is that this mechanism has existed since 2005 and only in recent years, through some improvements in its architecture, has it started to reach levels where it effectively has an impact on decisions. I confirmed this morning, I went to see, and they are trading at 30… around 30,00€ a ton of CO2, so a company, for an industrial installation to emit a ton, it has to pay…

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. It has to pay, yes, exactly.

Júlia Seixas:... through this mechanism an equivalent of 30,00€. The truth is that the analysis that are carried out, namely by an existing committee, which was created a few years ago, within the scope of a COP and which is coordinated… led by Stiglitz, who is the Nobel Prize winner and by Mr. Nicholas Stern, who is also a very – British – teacher with good repute in these subjects. What they assessed was that for the entire world economy to be aligned with the objectives of the Paris Agreement, that is, to reduce emissions, we, at this moment, should have prices around 50…

Catarina Barreiros: Euros a ton?

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Júlia Seixas: And in 10 years, around 80/100. Therefore, we are still below.

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Júlia Seixas: And, therefore, it's true, there is a lot going on, but we have to have this…

Catarina Barreiros: This regulation is needed more urgently, more...

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. Exactly. Because the price signal in relation to many aspects, especially production is very important...

Catarina Barreiros: It makes decisions many times, isn't it?

Júlia Seixas: …for the manager or investor to decide…

Catarina Barreiros: Between two alternatives.

Júlia Seixas: The next cycle of investment, is not this, what is already done and needs to be monetized. But the next investment cycle of a company has to pay attention to this price signal. And that's very... it's very important. And so it depends...

Sara Goulartt: And that's what helps bring about new technology, isn't it?

Júlia Seixas: Exactly.

Sara Goulartt: New technologies take in account the CO2 price factor. But where I wanted to get was to the role that the community has decided, that we as citizens have been playing. Europe is an example of this and the United States. We can actively push and that's why we see governments moving faster, because they have societies that are themselves active, demanding and ambitious. And the governments respond.

Catarina Barreiros: Governments are elected by the people. 

Júlia Seixas: Of course.

Sara Goulartt: Yes. And no... on a continent like Europe, that is visible, on others less so and we have big challenges. We have big challenges.

Catarina Barreiros: But it is a good sign that we have the long-awaited return of the United States to the Paris Agreement.

Sara Goulartt: Of the United States. Of course, of course.

Catarina Barreiros: So maybe we have here...

Júlia Seixas: It is very important. It is very important.

Catarina Barreiros: Along with China, it's the heaviest carbon weight…

Júlia Seixas: Beyond that. It's more than that. So it's the... it's one of the... it's the second after China, the United States is...

Catarina Barreiros: Um-hum. The second largest emitter.

Júlia Seixas:... the second largest emitter. 

Sara Goulartt: But per capita they are the first.

Júlia Seixas: Per capita they are the champions and they have a big lead.

Sara Goulartt: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: Because they also have a lot of purchasing power…

Sara Goulartt: It's important to speak per capita.

Júlia Seixas: Yes, yes. The per capita is very important. In terms of stock, let's say, of emissions, China is in fact first. But on a per capita basis, the United States is ahead. But, in addition to themselves, they serve as an example to many other countries, to many other political leaders and, therefore, it is very important...

Sara Goulartt: And the role of innovation, isn't it? It is a continent that is very...

Catarina Barreiros: Dynamic. 

Sara Goulartt: ... very dynamic in the area of innovation and...

Júlia Seixas: Right.

Sara Goulartt: And it also helps a lot to have the entire scientific community [00:35:00] channel their efforts there.

Júlia Seixas: There. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right, right, right.

Júlia Seixas: Innovation and the financial system. 

Sara Goulartt: Of course. Yes. Of course.

Júlia Seixas: That's huge. At the end of the day, or at the beginning of the day, in this case, all the big projects, namely renewables, have the assets of the financial sector and, therefore, it is very important for the financial sector to decide where it will put its next million euros, or their next million dollars.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. Sustainability has to work within the triad, doesn't it? Economy, society, environment.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly.

Catarina Barreiros: And it is important for all stakeholders to be involved in this decision.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly.

Sara Goulartt: Yes, but the financial sector is indeed the heavy, very heavy weight.

Catarina Barreiros: Because it decides, isn't it? That is what I was saying a little while ago, we need to give energy to all people, we need to be able to do it economically, it has to be viable, it has to be... of course the financial sector, in the United States, maybe, in a country that is a bit more capitalistic which is more profit-driven, isn't it? It seeks profit more, but it is necessary to have financial viability for a company, is it not? So if a company has a technology that it cannot implement, it is difficult to change the world only with the goodwill of the company, isn't it? Or with the...

Júlia Seixas: But this is why there are public policies, because if technology is at an early stage and needs help, let's say, there are public policies, as renewables here 10, 15 years ago, to speed up the entry of these technologies. And that...

Catarina Barreiros: Of course, this governmental action, isn't it?

Júlia Seixas: ...from the point of view of the economy as a whole, it makes a lot of sense. This helps new technologies to enter the market.

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hm. Like these taxes we have talked about. Carbon taxes.

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. 

Catarina Barreiros: If we can put everything at the same level - right? - if suddenly a more sustainable alternative is cheaper than a dirtier one because there is a carbon payment, in that case, it is competitive, isn't it?

Júlia Seixas: Of course. And that is precisely the purpose of the carbon pricing.

Catarina Barreiros: Of course. That is where the role of the State comes in. We are talking about three things... I think sustainability will always lead here, won't it? That is business, citizens, governments. All have to communicate with each other.

Sara Goulartt: They must be in tune. 

Catarina Barreiros: And my hardest question here is about how we live as citizens, what can we actively do today, after we have just seen this podcast, to do our part? What can we do? For any of the two. The one who wants to enter here in this... one thing that we can do.

Sara Goulartt: Well, we've already talked about it, haven't we?

Catarina Barreiros: Yes.

Sara Goulartt: In fact, I think there is a very recent element here. While fossil fuels, until very recently, were the real one, the great responsible, it became very evident that the entire agri-food sector is also really important. Were we talking about 20%?

Júlia Seixas: 25%.

Sara Goulartt: 25% of total emissions. Here we are including deforestation. Important! And it is an important subject even for the country, with all the forest fires. Land management is an important theme for climate change.

Catarina Barreiros: Preservation and longevity of soils in Portugal.

Sara Goulartt: But picking on this, the food issue is evident. I think it is a discussion that has been held and that we were talking a little before and, in fact, reducing the consumption of beef is a reality. 

Catarina Barreiros: Right. 

Sara Goulartt: Turning here to my sector, and then giving way here to Julia, energy efficiency is one of the topics that is recognized as less popular in the European Union and we now see support, because it is economically profitable, but as you can see, there is a large portion of the population that does not have money to make the initial investment.

Catarina Barreiros: Initial. Initial capital, isn't it?

Sara Goulartt: Initial capital. But it is a subject... so if we understand, if we have enough financial means, and that is why we start to have some support given by the State, we can do it. Energy efficiency within our homes is one thing we can and must do.

Catarina Barreiros: The condominiums and neighborhoods.

Sara Goulartt: Yes. And now we have the solution of condominiums, we have the solution of communities and we must do so, not only for the environment, but because economically it is profitable. It is an area that I would say we can do, we must do and we must bet on the future. In addition to beef, which we must also reduce.

Júlia Seixas: Yes. I do not know to who you want to address this question, whether to the citizen directly and to his daily choices.

Catarina Barreiros: Yes. Hmm-hm. 

Júlia Seixas: I would've also elected the global food system. The actual global food system is responsible for a quarter of the emissions.

Sara Goulartt: That is a lot.

Catarina Barreiros: Hmm-hm.

Júlia Seixas: We can systematize it more or less like this: One third of these emissions are due to livestock and fisheries, then 25% is due to cultures themselves...

Catarina Barreiros: To feed people and animals.

Júlia Seixas: To feed people and animals. Then we have the land use changes due to deforestation. When we do deforestation, we are harming twice...

Sara Goulartt: Two harms. 

Júlia Seixas: Having a double problem that is...

Catarina Barreiros: Biodiversity. It loses biodiversity.

Júlia Seixas: When we are deforesting and we are destroying a carbon store, for people to have an idea [00:40:00], in a very approximate way, 50% of a tree trunk is carbon and, therefore, it is as if it had… a tree is a carbon store, it's right there. When we cut these... when we deforest, when we cut these trees, this carbon, sooner or later, will end up in the atmosphere, either because it is burned, or it is degraded by the microorganisms that in the end turn into CO2. Therefore, it will always end up in the atmosphere. Always! Whatever the destination is. It may take longer, or less time, or more years. And then we are leaving... so we are destroying this carbon warehouse, putting this carbon into the atmosphere, and therefore further increasing the greenhouse effect and we are failing to have the conditions to absorb carbon from the atmosphere, and so this is very serious. I am talking only from the point of view of CO2.

Sara Goulartt: Precisely.

Júlia Seixas: We are not referring…

Sara Goulartt: All the other variables.

Júlia Seixas: All other services that a forest provides.

Catarina Barreiros: Correct.

Júlia Seixas: As the promotion of biodiversity, for example, or water retention, soil conservation, etc.. This is an important part of the global food system. Of the global system. And then, finally, about 15, 18% is due to the distribution chains, the energy consumption associated with the distribution of the food system. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Júlia Seixas: Therefore, in the food system, there are also two things here that Sara has already said: one, which is very important, and that is very much acknowledged by many studies is indeed the consumption of beef, which is very resource consuming.

Catarina Barreiros: Hydric, carbonic. [Voice overlay] space.

Júlia Seixas: Water, etc.. And it emits a lot, especially methane. And so if the whole world population reduces... we don't need to become vegetarians. We don't need to become vegetarians, nor vegan. 

Catarina Barreiros: We need to cut down on the excess. 

Sara Goulartt: Reduce. Reduce.

Júlia Seixas: We only need to cut on the excess. It's already a very important help. And the other has to do with food waste, because all the energy and all the water that is put to produce a piece of food, if it is not consumed and is wasted, it is in fact...

Catarina Barreiros: It is a waste of all resources.

Júlia Seixas: It is very... it is indeed a terrible problem. I would choose the food system. These figures are related to the global food system, of course, but we should look at each of our own, yes.

Catarina Barreiros: Even in Portugal, Portuguese reports point out that a third of the food is wasted. In other words, in a small country where our proximity to the producer is perhaps privileged vis-à-vis other European countries and even at rest of the world, it is a lot.

Júlia Seixas: Yes.

Catarina Barreiros: And most of the waste is even estimated... well, in addition to the producer's waste, it is estimated that a large part is being made in our homes, so much so that when I go to the supermarket, I buy too much. I don't keep it well, I don't store it, I don't cook it.

Júlia Seixas: Right.

Catarina Barreiros: These are all things that we can easily do, improve easily. And I will close with a question that might... I don't want to give a morbid tone to this conversation because it was quite positive, but how would it be... we have to try to cut emissions to 1.5°C, 2°C. What happens, if we do not get there?

Júlia Seixas: Well, the IPCC did a report on that issue alone. On why we must reach 1.5 °C and not 2 °C in terms of the global temperature of the planet. And it is a report that is very much... it has a lot of information. Well, maybe, in a simple way not to... so that we can convey the message, I would say that what we know as... and what we call as extreme events, for example, the heat waves. The percentage of world population that in a 1.5 ºC scenario is... is subject to an extreme heat wave that happens once every 5 years doubles if we are in the 2 °C scenario. 

Catarina Barreiros: Ok. 

Júlia Seixas: We are talking about a few million. 60.000.000, if I can remember correctly to...

Catarina Barreiros: 120.

Júlia Seixas: 120, 200.000.000. If, for example... another issue has to do with droughts. And Portugal is very sensitive. Moreover, the Mediterranean basin in which the countries of southern Europe are contained, but also Latin America, which is a major exporter of food to Europe. We import a lot of food and, therefore, please note that we have not had the opportunity to talk about the impacts of climate change, but this… the globalized world, the globalized economy that makes us very dependent on other regions of the planet forces us to look very carefully to the impacts of climate change in the countries we import from.

Sara Goulartt: To the supply chains.

Júlia Seixas: To the suppliers' chains. And when we look at Latin America, Latin America is a problem, in fact, [00:45:00] because it appears in almost all projections as a country… as a region, a continent, that is very problematic with regard to droughts and therefore, to regions subject to water stress, which in relation to some crops or some products, can mean…

Catarina Barreiros: Scarcity.

Júlia Seixas: ... scarcity and disruption of supply, for example. This is also a problem that really does. And then there is one that I am particularly sensitive about, one that we were talking about here and that has to do with climate change, one of the impacts of this global temperature rise is changing the distribution of ecosystems. Ecosystems are changing places. The mosquitoes are climbing the mountains, something that we had not seen in 20, 30, 40 years, in mountainous regions certain species of mosquitoes.

Sara Goulartt: In altitude.

Júlia Seixas: In altitude. Therefore, mosquitoes are rising in altitude and latitude to colder countries as well. And mosquitoes are just one example. The distribution of patterns, for example, of fish is also changing. One of the most significant impacts that this IPCC report shows has to do with changing ecosystems that are associated with the existence of insects. Insects are perhaps the most important organisms, on which we depend...

Catarina Barreiros: Without them, we do not eat. 

Júlia Seixas: Exactly. Without them, we don't eat. Less informed people do not have this notion and therefore the difference of 1.5°C to 2°C means that something like 18% of insects will be impacted, instead of 6%, because the climatic conditions of their ecosystems in fact will have changed.

Catarina Barreiros: Therefore, the conclusion we come to is that we do not survive with more 1.5°C, 2°C. [Overlay voices] 1.5°C.

Júlia Seixas: We can survive, but we will have very high costs. The question is not if we survive, what is the cost of living in this climate.

Catarina Barreiros: Exactly. How does... exactly. What is the cost to... exactly. So it remains for us to say that it is now or never!
We are all agents of change. And together we can transform the world. It is now or never! An EDP podcast that discusses the present and seeks solutions for a more sustainable future. Follow the podcast It's Now or Never on Spotify or edp.com.